WIll God save us if we don't believe in the Resurrection?

Jesus' death is a gift for those who will ask for it. Though his death, you can be forgiven for your sins if you ask and accept the fact that jesus is your savior. If you do these your sins will be for given and you can be cleansed with the blood of your savior. If your die with jesus as your savior(clean) then you can ascend into his holy place for eternity.by unclean, I meant impure

I think you're reaching there to prove your point. Not that that is at all a wrong thing to do, but I disagree. Stoning was equally if not more horrific as a way to die, simply because bones were broken (plus the fact that in many cases the person stoned was simply left, still living, to die later of internal bleeding or starvation).Also the quote from Zech, while often used as a messianic prophesy is certainly not one. If you read all of the passage it falls apart in that sense. It's a general lament.The passage from Deuteronomy is also inappropriate from the point of view of any Christian. To say that Jesus is under GOD's curse simply makes no sense whatsoever. Crucifixion was a Roman tradition, and in light of the common Jewish perspective, does not fit within any framework I can imagine. In addition, the passage is often misinterpreted. It does not say "If someone is put to death by hanging on a tree, but rather someone after having been put to death is hung from a tree and left as a warning or message to others.It's an interesting passage, one that Ladybird Johnson would have used. It is saying "Don't mess up the landscape. Don't litter. Don't leave smelly bodies hanging around."If you wish to include the passage from Deuteronomy, then Jesus is already eliminated as a messiah, since that passage implies Jesus is cursed by GOD.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I think that is the key issue. When we get to that I'll elaborate, but I don't think you and I are quite ready for that step yet. I just wanted you to know though that I hope one day soon we'll get there and that I realize that will be the eventual goal.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

When you refer to Christ's death and resurrection as a "circus act", then you've made fun of something which almost all Christians cherish. In fact, it's almost impossible to type that phrase without knowing in advance that it will offend the Christian you're replying to.I've always attempted to deeply respect anyone's position -- that is, until they start showing signs of irreverance toward my faith, or general flippancy towards something which I hold dear to me. If you want to continue with that line of discussion with others, feel free. I obviously can't stop you. Even if I wanted to stop you, I don't have any authority to stop you anyway.I deeply respect each individuals freedom of speech. I think people should be free to speak according to the dictates of their conscience -- no matter how much I might disagee with them. However, if you're expecting me to believe you when you say that you're honestly looking for answers within the Scriptures, all the while insulting the faith of many Christians at the same time, then no I don't believe you.Hopefully jar will be able to explain to you what I was trying to explain patiently to you already. As for me, I've had enough. If explaining my faith to some stanger means I have to listen to the stranger mock the faith I believe in, then I'm stepping out of the discussion.I hope you find all the answers you're searching for. Just remember, sometimes the questions you ask are more important than the answers you find.Take care.This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 06-27-2005 08:18 AM

I have no problem with this. There is an alternative to bailing. One can also choose to ignore the a**holes who don't really respect your thoughts in the first place.Ifen has presented some very interesting insights into the nature of why he has rejected the faiths based mostly on the Abrahamic covenants. He's specifically mentioned critical reasons as to why he has rejected Christianity in general -- and he has done it without being insulting in the process. When I have some time, I will respond.Similarly, arachnophilia has presented some very interesting insights into why he believes the way he does. He's backed it up with some Scriptural quotes and ideas, explained some points, and done it without really being insulting in the process. I respect his opinions in regards to how he has formulated his ideas about God in relation to the question of evil -- even if I don't necessarilly agree with them. That's why I've invited him to engage in a formal debate here at EvC.Edit: editted swearing.This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 06-27-2005 10:29 PM

I think you need to reconsider a few things you say.

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My apologies. What have I done wrong and what can I do to correct it?

Just try to behave in a civil manner.

I don't understand. I'm honestly asking for advice on what I can do to fix the post that you've just warned me about.What do you want me to go back and change? I'll go back and change it.

No more calling folk a**holes.

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I realize that I'll probably get a ban for this, but I think it needs to be said. I don't understand why I was warned for this. I've never specifically named anyone when I said the following: As far as I can tell, I phrased this as a general statement which is basically true. I've also seen a lot worse than this elsewhere in these forums -- and without naming names, I've noticed that their attitude goes way across the line to the point of being personal attacks.In addition to this, many people of faith are expected to tolerate the accusations that are routinely levelled against them -- such as that their faith is a joke, or meaningless, or somehow stupid (and this applies to both creationists and evolutionists).In addition to this, it is often implied that if people believe a certain way (either creation or evolution), then they are basically the same as the faith they espouse to believe. It's not a personal attack per se, but the message is generally well received that if the person believes a certain way, then they too are basically just as much of a joke as what they believe in.Like I said, I'll probably get a ban for saying this. And I accept whatever you might decide for me for challenging you on this Adminjar. However, I think there's a double standard going on here -- and I don't think these kinds of warnings are being applied fairly accross the board to all individuals.

A very good question, one that I often ask. I guess we can only really speak for ourselves, for we are the only ones who know what is in our hearts. But here is a good quote, that made me think.

quote:

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On first hearing of Jesus, Helen Keller--that marvelous person originally cut off from all hearing and seeing--who like the Ethiopian had no way to understand unless someone showed her--Helen Keller, on first hearing of Jesus said, "I knew there had to be somebody like that." Jesus stands on his own at the crossroad of life. We don't have to make anything of him. He is there all along for us.

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From this web-page.
http://www.day1.net/transcript.php?id=68There are many more web pages that explain that Helen Keller knew there was a God. You see God writes his laws in the hearts and minds of all.Hebrews 8:10
This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.I have also heard testimonys from missions from our church in Africa, that Angels have visited those people, and told them things. One kid was visited when he was 4, and was told he was going to be a Pastor. He is one now. He knew nothing of Jesus when that happened.I wish an Angel would visit me, but I guess I have been given enough in this life to go on, and know the truth.Just a thought.

Those are some quaint little stories and I'm sure they make for great sermons and discussions in your church. However, they don't change the fact that religion can be mapped to geographic boundaries, especially before the internationalization we see today. Those cultures grew without input from other regions.This kind of cultural evolution bound by geographic limitations of the era is clear evidence that Jesus is not "in our hearts." You must be exposed and possibly "sold" on Jesus.

Thats your opinion. Science will tell you that all humans can be traced back to a starting point. Supossedly we all came from one DNA, Adam perhaps. Nevermind, I'm sure you have a speculation about that also.The truth is that you have no authority to speak for all the cultures of the world, and how they came to be. Nor do you know what is on peoples hearts. That leaves us with the fact that anything is possible.Even as little as 2000 years ago a small group of apostles went around a very large area, and spread the gospel. This of course does not mean that everyone actually knows about Jesus. The bible says that he cannot come back until his word is spread to the ends of the earth. My point is, that we do not actually know who knows, and who doesn't. The ones who don't, I would hope that God deals with them in a way that they can comprehend, or find God. It is not for us to judge. That is the problem I have with this whole thread, we are judging whether or not people are going to heaven. Yea the bible says you have to believe, but it also says do not judge. So what do we do?Just love God, and love others, let God sort it out.