Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,821 Year: 3,078/9,624 Month: 923/1,588 Week: 106/223 Day: 4/13 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   God is evil if He has miracles and does not use them.
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 361 of 390 (756129)
04-15-2015 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by ringo
04-15-2015 12:21 PM


Re: Basic Foundation
That's why your own assessment of your behaviour has to be suspect.
I agree completely with this statement. It's precisely what my system is designed to prevent.
That's why we need a more objective societal opinion.
Objective in what sense?
What if society doesn't want to maximize helping people vs. minimizing hurting people?
What if society wants to prioritize society's survival at all costs?
What if society thinks rape victims are required as sacrifice to the Gods to keep the economy running?
Wouldn't that be introducing society's own bias into the situation?
How can you tell if society is "more objective" or not? When is it "objective enough."
What standard are you using?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by ringo, posted 04-15-2015 12:21 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by ringo, posted 04-15-2015 1:09 PM Stile has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 362 of 390 (756131)
04-15-2015 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 361 by Stile
04-15-2015 12:59 PM


Re: Basic Foundation
Stile writes:
ringo writes:
That's why your own assessment of your behaviour has to be suspect.
I agree completely with this statement. It's precisely what my system is designed to prevent.
How can you eliminate individual biases by emphasising individual opinions?
Stile writes:
Objective in what sense?
Objective in the sense that a group of people is more likely to be "right" than an individual.
Stile writes:
What if society doesn't want to maximize helping people vs. minimizing hurting people?
Then society is "right".
Stile writes:
What if society wants to prioritize society's survival at all costs?
Then society is "right".
Stile writes:
What if society thinks rape victims are required as sacrifice to the Gods to keep the economy running?
Then society is "right".
Stile writes:
Wouldn't that be introducing society's own bias into the situation?
I suppose you could say that each society has its own "group bias" - but the word "bias" loses its meaning if you claim that everybody has the same bias.
Stile writes:
How can you tell if society is "more objective" or not?
A group is by definition more objective than an individual.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by Stile, posted 04-15-2015 12:59 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by Stile, posted 04-15-2015 1:15 PM ringo has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 363 of 390 (756132)
04-15-2015 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by ringo
04-15-2015 12:41 PM


Re: Just a coffee
ringo writes:
It matters to you, not to anybody else - just like the kind of ice cream you eat doesn't matter to anybody else.
Either you don't understand what I'm describing, or you're trolling.
This statement doesn't make any sense.
I just described that what matters to me is helping other people in whatever way they describe that as such.
I'm talking about figuring out what matters to "everybody else."
Then you said that this just matters to me, but not to anyone else.
You just said that what matters to other people doesn't matter to other people.
What about in the case of drugs, where the "victims" don't always agree that they're victims?
What about it?
I consider it the same way as I consider tobacco...
We know that smoking is bad for you.
But, if someone wants to judge for themselves that they would rather accept the negative consequences for whatever positive conditions they get in return... who am I to tell them they shouldn't be allowed to smoke?
Same for drugs:
If someone wants to judge for themselves that they would rather accept the negative consequences for whatever positive conditions they get in return... who am I to tell them they shouldn't be allowed to do drugs?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by ringo, posted 04-15-2015 12:41 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by ringo, posted 04-15-2015 1:18 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 364 of 390 (756133)
04-15-2015 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by ringo
04-15-2015 1:09 PM


Re: Basic Foundation
ringo writes:
How can you eliminate individual biases by emphasising individual opinions?
I'm not eliminating the bias.
I'm saying that their bias is the only one that matters.
ringo writes:
Stile writes:
What if society thinks rape victims are required as sacrifice to the Gods to keep the economy running?
Then society is "right".
Fair enough.
This is then society's "reason" for deciding good/bad.
I'm just saying that my "reason" is better than that.
I think it's obvious that my reason of wanting to maximize helping people and minimize hurting people is better than sacrificing rape victims to the Gods to keep the economy running.
I fully understand that any person (or society) that doesn't agree with my reason will not agree with my system that flows from that reasoning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by ringo, posted 04-15-2015 1:09 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by ringo, posted 04-15-2015 1:22 PM Stile has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 365 of 390 (756134)
04-15-2015 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 363 by Stile
04-15-2015 1:09 PM


Re: Just a coffee
Stile writes:
I just described that what matters to me is helping other people in whatever way they describe that as such.
I'm talking about figuring out what matters to "everybody else."
What matters to everybody else is how everybody else treats other people. If your individual ideas are to treat people better than the average, that's nice. If your individual ideas are to treat people worse than the average, then society is going to have a problem with you. Otherwise, your individual ideas don't matter.
Stile writes:
If someone wants to judge for themselves that they would rather accept the negative consequences for whatever positive conditions they get in return... who am I to tell them they shouldn't be allowed to do drugs?
So you never decide for somebody whether he's a victim or not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by Stile, posted 04-15-2015 1:09 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 367 by Stile, posted 04-15-2015 2:00 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 366 of 390 (756135)
04-15-2015 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 364 by Stile
04-15-2015 1:15 PM


Re: Basic Foundation
Stile writes:
I'm not eliminating the bias.
I'm saying that their bias is the only one that matters.
But Charles Manson's bias is the problem, not the solution. That's why it's important to eliminate individual biases. Since you admit that you're not eliminating bias, your system fails drastically.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by Stile, posted 04-15-2015 1:15 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by Stile, posted 04-15-2015 2:02 PM ringo has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 367 of 390 (756139)
04-15-2015 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 365 by ringo
04-15-2015 1:18 PM


Re: Just a coffee
ringo writes:
What matters to everybody else is how everybody else treats other people.
I don't think you get to say what matters to everybody else.
I think that "everybody else" gets to say what matters to everybody else. And it's going to be different for different people.
If your individual ideas are to treat people better than the average, that's nice. If your individual ideas are to treat people worse than the average, then society is going to have a problem with you. Otherwise, your individual ideas don't matter.
There you go again with "don't matter."
Don't matter to what????
My individual ideas about morality certainly do matter when my moral priority is to help people and not hurt them.
Of course my individual ideas don't matter to anyone else who doesn't care about helping people and not hurting them.
But, according to my priority, I don't care.
At some point, I would rather by lynched by a mob than give up on certain levels of my principles.
So you never decide for somebody whether he's a victim or not?
I do when I'm trying to do the right thing and am unable to gain the information from them directly. Then I do the best I can with my experiences and history.
However, I can only say I'm actually doing the right thing if I can confirm it with them.
If you have a specific circumstance in mind, please present it and we can discuss.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by ringo, posted 04-15-2015 1:18 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by ringo, posted 04-16-2015 11:50 AM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 368 of 390 (756140)
04-15-2015 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by ringo
04-15-2015 1:22 PM


Re: Basic Foundation
ringo writes:
Since you admit that you're not eliminating bias, your system fails drastically.
Then it should be easy for you to describe a simple scenario or example where this happens.
Since you haven't been able to do that, I think you're overstating your case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by ringo, posted 04-15-2015 1:22 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by ringo, posted 04-16-2015 11:53 AM Stile has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 369 of 390 (756209)
04-16-2015 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 367 by Stile
04-15-2015 2:00 PM


Re: Just a coffee
Stile writes:
Of course my individual ideas don't matter to anyone else who doesn't care about helping people and not hurting them.
It has nothing to do with wanting to help people or not hurt them. Other people can want to help people and not hurt them without caring in the least about your ideas. Your ideas don't matter to anybody but you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by Stile, posted 04-15-2015 2:00 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by Stile, posted 04-20-2015 1:57 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 370 of 390 (756210)
04-16-2015 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 368 by Stile
04-15-2015 2:02 PM


Re: Basic Foundation
Stile writes:
ringo writes:
Since you admit that you're not eliminating bias, your system fails drastically.
Then it should be easy for you to describe a simple scenario or example where this happens.
Been there, done that. The guy who thinks he's being victimized by the gas company is biased. You want to base your actions on his complaint - i.e. you want to back his refusal to pay his gas bill.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by Stile, posted 04-15-2015 2:02 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by Stile, posted 04-20-2015 1:50 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 371 of 390 (756443)
04-20-2015 8:42 AM


Lets Get Back To God...
Lets get back to the idea that God if God exists has a basic responsibility to do all He can for humanity...that is, if he truly cares.
Humanity itself, it can be argued, is often biased, self serving, and shirking our responsibility to each other...that is if an absolute standard can be established.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by Jon, posted 04-21-2015 2:38 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 372 of 390 (756458)
04-20-2015 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 370 by ringo
04-16-2015 11:53 AM


Re: Basic Foundation
ringo writes:
Been there, done that. The guy who thinks he's being victimized by the gas company is biased. You want to base your actions on his complaint - i.e. you want to back his refusal to pay his gas bill.
That's not true. And, again, you're ignoring everything I've already said about this.
But, if you want to do it again, then we will:
I do not back the man's refusal to pay his gas bill.
I simply back that this man gets to decided if what the gas company is doing to him is good or bad.
On the course of punishment (here: not paying the gas bill), I've already agreed with you that such things should not be determined by the one affected by the action. I've already agreed that 3rd party is better in this scenario.
Punishment should consider a lot of things, not limited to:
How many other people are the gas company affecting with the same action?
Are all people saying that the gas company is being bad to them?
However, I still say that the man should be able to identify if the gas company is being good or bad to him.
Again, your scenario doesn't even show a failure in the use of my system, let alone a drastic one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by ringo, posted 04-16-2015 11:53 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by ringo, posted 04-21-2015 11:39 AM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 373 of 390 (756459)
04-20-2015 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by ringo
04-16-2015 11:50 AM


Re: Just a coffee
ringo writes:
Other people can want to help people and not hurt them without caring in the least about your ideas. Your ideas don't matter to anybody but you.
Of course they don't, who says they should?
That doesn't change my proposed argument that my system is the best way to prioritize helping people and not hurting them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by ringo, posted 04-16-2015 11:50 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 375 by ringo, posted 04-21-2015 11:43 AM Stile has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 374 of 390 (756497)
04-21-2015 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 372 by Stile
04-20-2015 1:50 PM


Re: Basic Foundation
Stile writes:
I do not back the man's refusal to pay his gas bill.
I simply back that this man gets to decided if what the gas company is doing to him is good or bad.
But his opinion of "good" or "bad" is completely empty if it has no effect on the outcome.
Stile writes:
On the course of punishment (here: not paying the gas bill), I've already agreed with you that such things should not be determined by the one affected by the action. I've already agreed that 3rd party is better in this scenario.
So you agree that your system doesn't work in this scenario. How is that not a failure?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by Stile, posted 04-20-2015 1:50 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 377 by Stile, posted 04-22-2015 10:17 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 375 of 390 (756499)
04-21-2015 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 373 by Stile
04-20-2015 1:57 PM


Re: Just a coffee
Stile writes:
ringo writes:
Other people can want to help people and not hurt them without caring in the least about your ideas. Your ideas don't matter to anybody but you.
Of course they don't, who says they should?
That doesn't change my proposed argument that my system is the best way to prioritize helping people and not hurting them.
If other people can want to help people and not hurt them without using your system, what's the benefit of your system?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by Stile, posted 04-20-2015 1:57 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 378 by Stile, posted 04-22-2015 10:20 AM ringo has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024