In His own image .....

Are you saying that clouds have free will? That they can 'decide' to drift against the flow of air? I spoke of killing someone, implying, I thought, human beings. I am sorry if that was not clear. I would hope that you don't have so little imagination. Why not have reproductive organs that don't function without the person being aroused. This way, unless both parties are active, willing participants, sexual intercourse is not possible. Why not?The fact is that if God created this universe and decided what it's physical constraints and conditions would be, then he has restricted our free will.------------------
He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife.
- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy

If God made us to run exactly like his simulation than there is no free will. But we came first i think because real simulations do not precede what is being simulated.
As to us controlling clouds by a weather simulator, I think you mean a weather controller, because simulations do not make real life things do anything.
Lets pretend you know a guy named Jim Donovan (fictional). he has been your friend since you were kids, because of this you can accurately predict to how he will act for any given situation. Is your friend Jim mechanistic because you can do this?

Neither of your examples are really analogous to an omnipotent, omniscient god. Both imply the observer and the observed are peers.

"The fact is that if God created this universe and decided what it's physical constraints and conditions would be, then he has restricted our free will."but we break physical constriants all the time. just because human beings have not been made to fly does it limit our free will?"I spoke of killing someone, implying, I thought, human beings. I am sorry if that was not clear."if human beings could not be killed i think the bible would have said God made other gods as opposed to "in his own image" which to my mind is Free Will."Are you saying that clouds have free will? That they can 'decide' to drift against the flow of air?"
Bad analogy to your mind, read my next one about Jim."I would hope that you don't have so little imagination. Why not have reproductive organs that don't function without the person being aroused. This way, unless both parties are active, willing participants, sexual intercourse is not possible."
What a excellent idea why don't you put it in God's suggestion box.

"In his own image" suggests we are peers in regards to image.

The constraits I am talking about are things like flying, so yes. However I was concentrating more on acts that cause other people harm. I can not kill you simply by snapping my fingers. God apparently does not think that I should be able to use my free will in this manner, yet he finds it acceptable that I can shot you. I can't recall the exact text (maybe someone else can?) but I do remember that God says, after Adam and Eve had eaten from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, that he better get man out of the Eden before we eat from the Tree of Live and become as Gods.If nobody else can remember this verse I will look it up for you tomorrow. I find that one little better for the same reason expressed by zephyr. If God is all-powerful and all-knowing then I shouldn't have to.------------------
He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife.
- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Free will does not imply being all knowing and all powerful.

I never said that it did. However God is supposed to be all-powerful and all-knowing and to have given us free will. The whole point of this argument is that free will is not logically possible if God is all-knowing.If you do not subscribe to this idea then you need to define what you mean by God.-----I also noticed that you didn't address any of my other points.-----The passage I was speaking about in an earlier post is Gen 3:22.------------------
He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife.
- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Hi all,I have been following this thread and have a few observations to make.Back in message #7 Drum stated: referring to man's supposed fall from perfection in the garden.According to the bible, your god obviously DID create something non-perfect. If he is omniscient like your good book says, then he knew before hand what was going to happen and he created Adam and Eve anyway.Later on in the thread Stevo again talks about god's omniscience and about man's free will. If I were to believe in the bible, I would have serious questions concerning this contradiction. (in fact I DID when I was a believer).

• Only God can create life
• God is omniscient
• God is omnipotent
• God is infallible
• God is omnibenevolent
• God is just
• God is merciful
• Man was created with free will
• Angels did not have free will

1. If the angels didn't have free will (as stated by Mike Holland in message #20)How could Lucifer make a choice to go against God?
2. If God is omniscient and knows us before he creates us, then he knows what we will be in our lives (agnostic, atheist, christian, buddhist, etc). He also knew what would happen in the garden, or with the world of Noah, or the people of Sodom.
3. If he doesn't know what will happen then he isn't omniscient.
4. If he already knows that I will be agnostic before he allows me to be concieved and born then I have no choice, that decision being made for me before I am born. No free will.
5. If he knows what "choices" I will make and still creates my life, how can he judge my "choice"? He obviously created me for the express purpose of being damned. No mercy.
6. If he did create me just to damn me then he isn't omnibenevolent.
7. If my life came about against God's will, then he is not omnipotent and he isn't the only one able to create life.
8. If he made a mistake in my creation (or the creation of mankind) then he isn't infallible.
9. If he cursed all of mankind (all of animalkind actually)for the mistakes of two people....if he destroyed all living things on earth except for the 8 in the ark and the animals they supposedly took with them....if he destroyed two entire cities because he percieved sin in the adults....then he isn't just or merciful.

I just do not see how believers can literally believe all these things about their god. They are not only contradictory among themselves, but contradict the actions of this god.------------------
Asgara"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

in response o the Mark Eastman issue, he has not only read Denton's book, I marked it up more than any book he owns. Denton has been an evolutionist for decades. There are plenty of evolutionists that are "antiDarwinists." That is, they believe in evolution, but not in Darwin's formulation. Nature's Destiny is Denton's attempt to present a "deterministic" view of evo in which the laws of physics supposedly are "rigged" to create life. Mark's personal mentor, Dr. A.E. Wilder-Smith, has met with Denton many times to discuss these things. Believe me, he was an Evolutionist when he wrote Evo: A Theory in Crisis, but he was not a Darwinist!As for the last subject, God is Omnicient, Omnipresent, etc... and you were not created for the purpose of being damned. Yes, God knew of your every waking moment in life before you were made- however, while you yet breathe you have ample oppurtunity make the choice to serve Him. Your choice is your choice; as far as God stoping bullets and "impeding on ones free will", the flaw in this argument is the fact that the word of man has greater power than the word of God. (This is biblical, and i will get the exact reference as soon as possible.)The reason why? Because while He has His plans for you, you have been granted the freedom to do what pleases you- your choice for your life. This is no different than a mother and father wanting the best for their children, but letting them run their own life and make their own choices, knowing that they will eventually suffer consequences and reap rewards based on those choices.Angels DO have free will. God did create imperfect beings, yes. However, Eve was decieved, because (as far as scripture shows) she was never told not to eat of the fruit of the tree of life. Was this an oversite on Gods part? No, because in Revelation, God sets satan free for a time, after the millenium reign of Christ, because the people born during this time have not had the oppurtunity to choose something other than God. God did not err here; this was deliberate.[This message has been edited by iamNOTamonkey, 08-14-2003]

Hi Iamnotamonkey If, as you state, god knew of my every waking moment in life before I was made, then he already knew I would be agnostic. He would know what the state of my mind would be on my death bed. If he "made" me anyway, knowing in what state I will die, then I have no real choice. How was Eve deceived? The truth was told to her and later verified by your god himself.

---

I do want to say one more thing. Some people think the agnostics on this board and others are arguing from a mindset of being "angry" with god and wanting to prove him wrong. I just wanted to state that as far as I go, I am arguing from a mindset of critiquing a piece of literature. I just wanted to state that in no way am I angry with god, or disillusioned with him. I don't believe he exists. I am discussing a literary figure in a poorly set out book.------------------
Asgara "An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

Asqara:Your life isn't finished yet. Your life may change. You may have
children who WILL go to be eternally with GOD. Have you read the
entire Bible? It seems miraculous that any book could be written
THROUGH by so many different people, from so many different backgrounds, over thousands of years and yet remain so focused.

Hi AC,Yes, I have read the bible, and YES my life has changed. I use to consider myself a Christian though I never thought of myself as a creationist.As for my life changing again, I guess an omniscient god would have known that that would happen. Same for someone who dies a confirmed atheist, an omniscient god would know that before the atheist was ever born. Therefore this god created someone destined for damnation.What do my children have to do with my state of belief or disbelief?
Whether or not my children were destined to believe in your god says nothing about the reasons for my being here.I have raised my children to question everything and search for their own answers. I have no fear that they will turn into any form of mindless robot. They are creative, intelligent, well-adjusted, moral individuals and strong free-thinkers.As for the bible being so "focused", I don't see it.------------------
Asgara "An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

Asgara:For YOUR children and their children to exist, clearly you must
need to have existed. Your fate is not the determination of theirs.
MS. Madaline Murry O'Hare raised her son an atheist. He is now
a repentant Christian Evangelist. Her end is not his and HIS
salvation is secure. MS. O'Hare had her opportunities. I don't
know if she is in heaven or not. Her life was not a happy one and
her death was sad...

Hi AC,Then why did you bring up my children in a reply to a post concerning my beliefs? And what does Madalyn Murray O'Hair have to do with me?(edited to fix typo)[This message has been edited by Asgara, 08-18-2003]