In His own image .....

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Well I've had this discussion before, and I'd like to know how you know that your God knows what you look like. Or what I look like for that matter?

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How is this question relevant to the existence of G-d or the validity of G-d's existence? Or nature of G-d for that matter?I guess I can respond to this question anyways. My belief is that G-d is Unity. To say more, I don't relate to G-d as if He is a BEING (of any kind). Rather, I stick to Jewish doctrine that He is an INTELECT.
With that said, I belief that our own intelects are part of G-d's Intelect (part of this Unity). Therefore he knows everything I know and everything that you know, and everything that everybody knows (and MUCH, MUCH MORE). Therefore, if you know how you look... He knows as well.

Well, I never dreamed that my tongue-in-cheek post would generate such a response.David, you ask whether a newly created Adam might be terrified by a tree, etc. I presume he was created as a grown-up man, with a working mind (even memories? would God create a tree with tree rings?). I do not visualise God sitting down and teaching him how to speak, how to walk, how to wash his face! But who knows? If he was created with the mind of a new-born babe, would he be terrified of anything? Maybe falling?I am fully aware that most Christians interpret 'in his own image' as referring to intellect, morality, etc, rather than physical appearance. But there are some Bible literalists out there ...One just has to read the Bible - '.. the Lord is slow to anger', '.. thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth', 'I will execute vengeance in anger and fury', 'god hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate','Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful', etc (I can provide references if anyone wants). So God is morally all mixed up - loving, hating, vengeful, merciful - and created us in this same image.Mike.

Mike Holland, Actually He did not make us like this. For example when He created man there was no sin so there was no death. So there was no hatered in man. And we have to look at the context of all scripture. I believe He doesn't hate us but He hates sin. For example the Amalekites. They were a nation that for 400 years they were sacrificing children on altars. And they were raping, killing and destroying the Israelites and whoever they came into contact with. It must have been incredibly wicked! Yes God is love. But He is righteous and is without sin. Thats why it talks about His just judgement of wrath on men because for example He gives them 400 years to repent. But God has shown His salvation to us. His just judgement was placed on His Son 2,000 years ago at the cross. Because He foreknew that man would sin. So He has provided justification freely for all. If those who are willing to admit they have sinned against a holy God and if they only receive. Right before Christ died He was in such agony about Going to the cross for man. He was literally sweating blood. The medical term is Hematidrosis

David unfamous, This is King David writing 3,000 years ago. This is an incredible passage about a little glimpse of who and how great He is.Psa 139: O LORD, You have searched me and known {me.} You know when I sit down and when I rise up; You understand my thought from afar. You scrutinize my path and my lying down, And are intimately acquainted with all my ways. Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all. You have enclosed me behind and before, And laid Your hand upon me. {Such} knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is {too} high, I cannot attain to it. Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there. If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea, Even there Your hand will lead me, And Your right hand will lay hold of me. If I say, "Surely the darkness will overwhelm me, And the light around me will be night," Even the darkness is not dark to You, And the night is as bright as the day. Darkness and light are alike {to You.} For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully [and] wonderfully made: marvellous [are] thy works; and [that] my soul knoweth right well. My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, {And} skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth; Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained {for me,} When as yet there was not one of them. How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God! How vast is the sum of them! If I should count them, they would outnumber the sand. When I awake, I am still with You.

I understand your view on this matter, Drum, but am confused about one thing. If evil etc was introduced by Adam's sin, then was the Devil not evil in tempting Adam? If the Devil is a fallen Angel, as many believe (I don't know what the Bible says on this matter), then was his fall not evil? Did Satan fall before the world was created?I have read the view that God made man to worship him - that the Angels did not fit the bill because they have no free will, but simply do God's bidding. But then Satan could not have fallen withouty being pushed by God! What do you make of this point of view?Mike.

Mike,The creation was perfect. I believe Satan was created before the world. Because it says the angels were rejoicing when God was creating. This is a great mystery to us all. This invisible kingdom. I believe Satan was created perfectly. He's not a red horned devil like creature. His name is Lucifer. It means light bearer. He was a guardian angel around the throne of God. It says he was a cherubim and he lead worship. Now we see what has happened to music with his influence. This is a description of who he is and what happened to him. Though this is just one passage from the Old Testament. There are a few. He was created for a puropese that was good but he turned against God so God had to banish him from heaven. I believe the creation wasn't tainted at the time of his rebellion. I'm not dogmatic about it but it seems to fit.Isaiah 14:12-20 12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! 13 For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit. 16 "Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms, 17 Who made the world as a wilderness And destroyed its cities, Who did not open the house of his prisoners?' 18 "All the kings of the nations, All of them, sleep in glory, Everyone in his own house; 19 But you are cast out of your grave Like an abominable branch, Like the garment of those who are slain, Thrust through with a sword, Who go down to the stones of the pit, Like a corpse trodden underfoot. 20 You will not be joined with them in burial.

Hi Drum, Where does this come from?I understood that there are various times that god says that the things that he created were 'very good', I never recall him saying that anything he created was perfect.Now, both you and me know that 'very good' is not the same as 'perfect.'I realise that you may be abe to provide a biblical reference where god declared his creation perfect, but I cannot find one.Best Wishes.Brian.[This message has been edited by Brian Johnston, 04-16-2003]

Thanks, Drummachine, for digging out those references. Now I know what the Bible says on the subject.
But you have not answered my questions.How can you claim the world was perfect until Adam sinned, when Satan had already sinned? Your interpretation is inconsistent.Why did God create Man, when he already had Angels for company?Brian also has a good point. I have gazed on many things and thought them good. But never perfect! Can you produce another Bible reference to justify this perfection, or are you just propagating another YEC deception?Just as an amusing aside, did it ever occur to you that God is a dictator, and Satan was a democrat who felt others should have a say in running the universe?Mike.

Brian,It says that before Adam and Eve sinned there was no death. Also before the fall animals didn't eat eachother. Animals and humans were vegetarian. So we live in a fallen state. I believe when God said "very good" it was perfect. God brings life but man has brought death.

Mike,How was my interpretation inconsistent? I believe Satan was banned from heaven but that he wasn't a part of the Genesis account. So he went to the earth.I believe God created us so we could have a relationship with Him.How is YEC a deception? I believe evolution is deception. It is impossible to get life from non-life. I believe God is Sovereign and not a dictator but He gives man free will. Satan is a murderer yet man does the same thing. So to blame God or Satan for our own sin is false accusation. I did most of my life. Yet we have all sinned and God has made one way for us to be saved. Through the death of the Son of God and not by works. He suffered more than any man but it says it was because of the joy set before Him that He endured. What is that joy? You and I.[This message has been edited by drummachine, 04-21-2003]

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How is YEC a deception?

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Because the earth is much older than any YEC'er can handle.

May I please have some evidence for the old age theory?

OK guys - age of the earth arguments should be in the Dates and Dating forum.Thanks.

AdminPamboli correctly points out that discussion of the evidence for an ancient earth belongs in the Dates and Dating forum, but the issue of how YEC is a deception can be addressed without getting into the evidence.Mainstream YECism as represented by organizations like ICR and CRS is misleading, deceptive and at times outright fabricationist because they purposefully ignore, distort, conflate or make up evidence in order to support their own particular literal interpretation of Genesis. They paint a distorted picture of modern scientific views to their church audiences to give the impression that questions like the age of the earth and the origin of species are still much in debate in scientific circles when nothing could be further from the truth. At best their faith has led them astray, and at worst they are liars and cheats.If YECism were honest then it would forthrightly state that modern science is fully convinced that the earth is billions of years and the TOE is correct, and that there is no doubt about this within scientific circles. If they were honest they would say this because this is the truth. They could then go on to state why they believe science is wrong.But they don't do that. They instead tell their congregations that science isn't really sure how old the earth is or where species came from, and that there is still plenty of controversy. Then they tell you that the saved Christian knows the answers to these scientific puzzles without a doubt, because these questions are plainly answered for all to see by the Word of God contained in the Bible.--Percy

So, necessarily, animals didn't reproduce before the Fall, or they (flies and cockroaches in particular) would have been chest-deep to a tall giraffe. And those carnissal teeth that the Cat Kind had were for subduing the wily and fierce Jurassic Carrot, which, like other vegetables back then, could be eaten without dying. Yeah.