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Author Topic:   If God is dead, does mankind become God?
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 1 of 109 (332290)
07-16-2006 6:42 PM


I would like to know how many of you react to that which I believe to be inevitable:
the idea that if God is dead, someone has to take His place, because life without a 'sovereign reality' is unlivable. We all must have a purpose or we cannot get out of bed in the morning. For some it is pleasure, for others it is carrying their cross. Their are as many truths that fuel a man as there are cultures. Without a purpose, or a belief that one's purpose has been lost, many take their own lives.
As support for that conclusion, I offer the parable by Friedrich Nietzsche. It seems to me that he believed this parable with enormous conviction. The life of the nihilist is one of despair; the longing for God, yet the inability to accept Him. The fear that he has built the wall so high, that God cannot rescue him. The burden of being responsible to correct the wrongs of this life. God forbid mankind should take the reigns of this universe, and I certainly believe He has forbidden it...
What strikes me is the power of the parable, and it's parrallels to reality (reality as I see it of course). It is as though Nietzsche was forced to see the truth regarding sovereignty, yet he could not see the trees for the forest.
Perhaps Nietzche was simply caught in the trap of fearing men. Maybe he was a preacher at heart, but was beaten down by the mob. He was a Christian in the beggining, and I believe his father was a Lutheran minister. In the end, he found ways to preach the striking truths of reality, but I am not certain that he was even aware of how clever he was. I am not convinced he was a man of God. But that does not preclude God from using a man. Even evil proves right the ways of God.
I do not intend to engage everyone on this topic, I mainly want to study your reactions. Specifically those of you who were unfamilliar with this parable until now.
THE MADMAN
Have you not heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market place, and cried incessantly: "I seek God! I seek God!"
As many of those who did not believe in God were standing around just then, he provoked much laughter. 'Has he got lost?' asked one. 'Did he lose his way like a child?' asked another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? emigrated? Thus they yelled and laughed.
The madman jumped into their midst and pierced them with his eyes. "Whither is God?" he cried; "I will tell you. We have killed him- you and I. All of us are his murderers. But how did we do this? How could we drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What were we doing when we unchained this earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving? Away from all suns? Are we not plunging continually? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there still any up or down? Are we not straying, as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is not night continually closing in on us? Do we not need to light lanterns in the morning? Do we hear nothing as yet of the noise of the gravediggers who are burying God? Do we smell nothing as yet of the divine decomposition? Gods, too, decompose. God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him."
"How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it? There has never been a greater deed; and whoever is born after us---for the sake of this deed he will belong to a higher history than all history hitherto."
Here the madman fell silent and looked again at his listeners; and they, too, were silent and stared at him in astonishment. At last he threw his lantern on the ground, and it broke into pieces and went out. "I have come too early," he said then; "my time is not yet. This tremendous event is still on its way, still wandering; it has not yet reached the ears of men. Lightning and thunder require time; the light of the stars requires time; deeds, though done, still require time to be seen and heard. This deed is still more distant from them than most distant stars---and yet they have done it themselves."
It has been related further that on the same day the madman forced his way into several churches and there struck up his requiem aeternam deo. Led out and called to account, he is said always to have replied nothing but: "What after all are these churches now if they are not the tombs and sepulchers of God?"
Source: Friedrich Nietzsche, The Gay Science (1882, 1887) para. 125. Walter Kaufmann ed. (New York: Vintage, 1974), pp.181-82.

Any biters in the stream?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminFaith, posted 07-16-2006 6:44 PM Rob has not replied
 Message 3 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-16-2006 6:55 PM Rob has replied
 Message 4 by Faith, posted 07-16-2006 7:06 PM Rob has replied
 Message 5 by nwr, posted 07-16-2006 7:06 PM Rob has replied
 Message 7 by CK, posted 07-16-2006 7:25 PM Rob has replied
 Message 72 by smegma, posted 07-19-2006 3:29 PM Rob has not replied

  
AdminFaith
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 109 (332292)
07-16-2006 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rob
07-16-2006 6:42 PM


Moved to Faith and Belief forum from If God is dead, does mankind become God? in Proposed New Topics forum
Edited by AdminFaith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Rob, posted 07-16-2006 6:42 PM Rob has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3950 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 3 of 109 (332299)
07-16-2006 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rob
07-16-2006 6:42 PM


i don't think it's necessary that anything become god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Rob, posted 07-16-2006 6:42 PM Rob has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 4 of 109 (332305)
07-16-2006 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rob
07-16-2006 6:42 PM


Hi Rob,
Although as admin I promoted the thread, I don't think this is a topic you can just leave to itself. I think you are going to have to shepherd it along if anything of any value is going to come of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Rob, posted 07-16-2006 6:42 PM Rob has replied

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 5 of 109 (332306)
07-16-2006 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rob
07-16-2006 6:42 PM


the idea that if God is dead, someone has to take His place, because life without a 'sovereign reality' is unlivable.
People who find life with without a 'sovereign reality' to be unlivable, should consult a psychiatrist in order to have that depression treated.
Edited by nwr, : corrected typo - thanks to Rob in Message 9 for pointing that out.

Compassionate conservatism - bringing you a kinder, gentler torture chamber

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Rob, posted 07-16-2006 6:42 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Rob, posted 07-16-2006 7:42 PM nwr has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 6 of 109 (332309)
07-16-2006 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
07-16-2006 7:06 PM


Hi Faith!
You're probably right and I intend to put to use some lessons that we're hard won. Surveying the responses thus far, I am greatly encouraged...
Always learning, and forever greatful, Rob

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 Message 4 by Faith, posted 07-16-2006 7:06 PM Faith has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4149 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 7 of 109 (332312)
07-16-2006 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rob
07-16-2006 6:42 PM


You've taken it too literally - that story is about the shifting cultural norms of europe away from a collective belief in the christian god concept.
(or that's how I remember it from studying it many years previously).
Anyway I live in a society (the uk) where your christian god concept has been practically dead for decades - we all manage to get out of bed in the morning, just fine.
Edited by CK, : No reason given.

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 Message 1 by Rob, posted 07-16-2006 6:42 PM Rob has replied

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 8 of 109 (332319)
07-16-2006 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by macaroniandcheese
07-16-2006 6:55 PM


i don't think it's necessary that anything become god.
I see what you mean to say.
However, philosophically speaking, God is reality (whatever God may be), reality is truth, and truth is the motivator, or the goal. So in that way, if there is no direction (or God), then that is God. In which case our friend Eisenhower was speaking nonsense.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by crashfrog, posted 07-16-2006 9:05 PM Rob has replied
 Message 14 by lfen, posted 07-16-2006 9:24 PM Rob has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 9 of 109 (332324)
07-16-2006 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by nwr
07-16-2006 7:06 PM


People who find life -with- a 'sovereign reality' to be unlivable, should consult a psychiatrist in order to have that depression treated.
I assume you meant to say without?, so that is how I will respond...
It is nice to be with you agian nwr. I suppose you would be willing to give up your reality with ease? It is my experience that most will hold on to their own truths like a bulldog. Perhpas you are unawre how sovereign your own worldview is philosophically. Well, that's what this is all about.
A striking figure once said that a rich man had as much chance of entering heaven as a Camel through the eye of a needle. A man riches are far greater than his pocketbook. Many a man would exchange gold for the riches of happiness in countless ways. Yes!
I wouldn't worry about my depression nwr, you have more than one man can endure yourself. Fortunately, I know a great healer. His methods forever amaze and astound me.
Keep in mind that if you want to question me in the way you have, that you must invoke a sovereign reality...
May God be with you, Rob

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by nwr, posted 07-16-2006 7:06 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by nwr, posted 07-16-2006 8:27 PM Rob has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 10 of 109 (332328)
07-16-2006 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by CK
07-16-2006 7:25 PM


we all manage to get out of bed in the morning, just fine.
I don't doubt that at all. So, tell me CK, what do you live for? (keep it short if not on topic please)
that story is about the shifting cultural norms of europe away from a collective belief in the christian god concept.
That rings true with me as well. What I found striking is that he confirms (logically and philosophically) that God or no God, man has need for a reason or purpose. I am stunned at how close he came to simply preaching the gospel! It amazes me to no end how few souls get it!
His was a proclaimation of the divinity of man (without God) as opposed to the divinity of man (in Christ). He meant it literally! If one sovereign reality is dead, then the truth becomes part of another sovereign reality.
No matter how you slice it... reality is inescapable!
If I am wrong about that, then you rest my case!
Edited by Rob, : resting your case...

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Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by nator, posted 07-18-2006 9:31 AM Rob has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 11 of 109 (332337)
07-16-2006 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Rob
07-16-2006 7:42 PM


I assume you meant to say without?, ...
Yes, and thanks for the correction. I have edited the original to correct that typo.
I suppose you would be willing to give up your reality with ease?
I don't claim ownership of reality. Rather, I deal with it as I find it.
Perhpas you are unawre how sovereign your own worldview is philosophically.
I'm skeptical of worldview ideas in philosophy, particularly as they are used by fundamentalist theologians. They use it to hide from the fact that their theology is out of touch with reality.
In any case, my own world view is constantly under revision, and has changed greatly over the last 15 years.
A striking figure once said that a rich man had as much chance of entering heaven as a Camel through the eye of a needle.
I'm quite familiar with that text. It seem to pose more of a problem for fundamentalists than it does for me, for a desire for riches has never been a driving force in my life.
I wouldn't worry about my depression nwr, ...
I didn't take your statement to be about yourself, so neither was my response.

Compassionate conservatism - bringing you a kinder, gentler torture chamber

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Rob, posted 07-16-2006 7:42 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Rob, posted 07-16-2006 9:15 PM nwr has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 12 of 109 (332347)
07-16-2006 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Rob
07-16-2006 7:33 PM


However, philosophically speaking, God is reality (whatever God may be), reality is truth, and truth is the motivator, or the goal. So in that way, if there is no direction (or God), then that is God.
So, in other words, the word "God" means everything, every definition possible; and therefore means nothing.
I guess that if you define "God" to arbitrarily mean whatever you decide it means, and at that point, mankind - or anything else - can very well be "God". But if you think you've communicated a useful idea at that point, you're mistaken.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Rob, posted 07-16-2006 7:33 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Rob, posted 07-16-2006 9:27 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 13 of 109 (332352)
07-16-2006 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by nwr
07-16-2006 8:27 PM


I don't claim ownership of reality. Rather, I deal with it as I find it.
You and I would agree on that point. Even if 2+2=4 and we accept and promote that, I don't think it could be said we are claiming ownership. After all, reality precedes us and created us, whatever it actually is in the end. But surely in the end it is something that exculudes all of the other possibilities. If it does not, then it excludes what I just sugested.
Reality is exclusive necessarily!
I'm skeptical of worldview ideas in philosophy, particularly as they are used by fundamentalist theologians. They use it to hide from the fact that their theology is out of touch with reality.
In any case, my own world view is constantly under revision, and has changed greatly over the last 15 years.
I don't know anyone who's worldview does not alter on a daily basis... Your skepticism is based itself in a worldview. Such circular reasoning is more evidence of hiding than those who know that truth is exclusive and have the boldness to say so, irrespective of the changing political environment.
A striking figure once said that a rich man had as much chance of entering heaven as a Camel through the eye of a needle.
I'm quite familiar with that text. It seem to pose more of a problem for fundamentalists than it does for me, for a desire for riches has never been a driving force in my life.
Everyone tries to make that statement out to be only about money. I find it appealing to far more than that. In the monetary sense, it shows us that we cannot buy our way into heaven as many Jews in the cultural context thought they could.
In it's entire sense it cuts to the heart of the matter because we have to ask why they cannot buy their way to heaven. Mankind does not like to give up control of his life. It is a power struggle. Giving up one's philosophical perspective (worldview) in exchange for reality (Christ) is next to impossible for the rich (in spirit). Rich in power and wealthy in pride!
As one who has given up my own truth in exchange for reality, I have to be even more careful to remember these things. The gifts I was given in return for my life are far more valuable than my own posessions ever could have been. If I forget that they are not my own, and that I did not earn them (as I have done from time to time) then I defeat the purpose for which they were given.
My humility is not based in any false attempt to cover my sins. My sins are appearent to all. I simply repent in dust and ashes, as there is no other course for a man living in Christ.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

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 Message 11 by nwr, posted 07-16-2006 8:27 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by nwr, posted 07-16-2006 9:55 PM Rob has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4699 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 14 of 109 (332357)
07-16-2006 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Rob
07-16-2006 7:33 PM


However, philosophically speaking, God is reality (whatever God may be), reality is truth, and truth is the motivator, or the goal. So in that way, if there is no direction (or God), then that is God. In which case our friend Eisenhower was speaking nonsense.
Well, I don't know about Eisenhower but here you are speaking nonsense.
I'll give you a bit of nonsense:
"God is dog spelled backwards."
That at least makes a little sense!
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Rob, posted 07-16-2006 7:33 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Rob, posted 07-16-2006 9:39 PM lfen has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 15 of 109 (332359)
07-16-2006 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by crashfrog
07-16-2006 9:05 PM


So, in other words, the word "God" means everything, every definition possible; and therefore means nothing.
Reality means a lot of things to a lot of people. whatever that is, that is their God. It is what they worship, and obey. It is their assumed purpose and all of their starting assumptions. It doesn't make it true, just as if I believe that 2+2=5. It just shows that we cannot escape worshiping something that assumes itself to be reality.
I guess that if you define "God" to arbitrarily mean whatever you decide it means, and at that point, mankind - or anything else - can very well be "God". But if you think you've communicated a useful idea at that point, you're mistaken.
I disagree! If it is true, it is very meaningful indeed! All of reality hangs in the balance in thinking about such things with honesty and clarity.
If it is false, then it is not simply false, but a damnable lie!
The implications are tremendous...
That is why Jesus' claim to be the way, the truth and the life are the most extraordinary claim. If true, it is the most true thing ever told. If false, the most destructive and evil of all utterance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by crashfrog, posted 07-16-2006 9:05 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by crashfrog, posted 07-17-2006 8:38 AM Rob has replied

  
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