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Author Topic:   We didn't pray
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 106 of 126 (299770)
03-31-2006 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Michael
03-31-2006 9:00 AM


Re: old post
quote:
Damnit, someone should be! If a God exists, she should be doing all in her power to stop all bad things from happening to people. If I thought it would be productive, I'd pray for that.
Maybe She is doing all in her power to stop bad things from happening, but She isn't all-powerful.
quote:
The more important question raised by your post is: how does John Travolta rate an exclamation mark?
Coz that was a long, long time ago before he was a big star.
I'm NOT into him, don't worry.
I'm into Matthew MacFadyen. Now THERE'S a gorgeous man and an incredible actor.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-31-2006 09:23 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Michael, posted 03-31-2006 9:00 AM Michael has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Michael, posted 03-31-2006 5:59 PM nator has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 107 of 126 (299801)
03-31-2006 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by nator
03-31-2006 8:32 AM


Be Ye Banished to Hell for not praying to ME!
Hi, Schraff! I think I see your point.
1) Does God "help" only those who pray to Him? (From my perspective)
and the answer is No.
2) Are non-believers at a disadvantage by missing out on hollaring for help from "God"? (from your perspective)
My answer would be that surely God is not so petty as to demand that people grovel in order to receive the good things in life.
I would imagine that, being who He is, that God desires all people to have the abundant life!
That being said, the ball is not in the court of the Deity. It is in the court of humanity. Care to play Tennis on a sunny day with a worthy opponent who could beat the pants off you yet will even let you win?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by nator, posted 03-31-2006 8:32 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Michael, posted 03-31-2006 1:11 PM Phat has replied

  
Michael
Member (Idle past 4638 days)
Posts: 199
From: USA
Joined: 05-14-2005


Message 108 of 126 (299819)
03-31-2006 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
03-31-2006 11:46 AM


Re: Be Ye Banished to Hell for not praying to ME!
Care to play Tennis on a sunny day with a worthy opponent who could beat the pants off you yet will even let you win?
Does "tennis" become "Tennis" because you are playing against a deity?
I would rather play against someone at a skill-level similar to my own. And if I win, I want it to be because I have played above my previous abilities, not because my opponent let me win. Winning means nothing if it is without effort.
Cheers.
{spelling error corrected}
This message has been edited by Michael, 03-31-2006 04:36 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 03-31-2006 11:46 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Phat, posted 03-31-2006 8:37 PM Michael has replied

  
Michael
Member (Idle past 4638 days)
Posts: 199
From: USA
Joined: 05-14-2005


Message 109 of 126 (299904)
03-31-2006 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by nator
03-31-2006 9:23 AM


a wee bit OT
Maybe She is doing all in her power to stop bad things from happening, but She isn't all-powerful.
Sounds like a story that Michael Moorcock could have written.
I'm into Matthew MacFadyen. Now THERE'S a gorgeous man and an incredible actor.
The only thing I've seen him in was Pride and Predudice, but my attention was mostly focused elsewhere on the screen. However, I think I can approve. At least he seems to be able to act.
Cheers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by nator, posted 03-31-2006 9:23 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by nator, posted 03-31-2006 8:09 PM Michael has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 110 of 126 (299927)
03-31-2006 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Michael
03-31-2006 5:59 PM


Re: a wee bit OT
quote:
The only thing I've seen him in was Pride and Predudice, but my attention was mostly focused elsewhere on the screen.
That's coz you're a boy.
I'm a girl, so...
quote:
However, I think I can approve. At least he seems to be able to act.
Yes, at least.
He has many, many other charms, I can assure you. That voice. Those eyes. His emotions worn on his sleeve but without any femininity at all...
Quite swoonworthy.
Keep an eye out for a movie that is going to be released in the US this May called In My Father's Den. It will only be in limited release, so you may need to hunt for it a bit.
Matthew stars as a celebrated war photographer who comes home to the small town in New Zealand for his father's funeral after leaving as a young teenager (AbE: I should amke it clear that he's returning many years later). It is part family drama and part thriller/mystery and won a bunch of awards at the New Zealand film festival and also (IIRC) made a good showing at Cannes.
I haven't seen it, of course, but I'm certainly going to.
Oh, and he was in the first three seasons of a BBC spy show called Spooks (MI 5 in the US) that I am currently getting through Netflix.
A really fun and gripping show. Plenty of exciting "spies saving the world" stuff but also with plenty of human drama.
Matthew is great in it and so is the rest of the cast.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-31-2006 08:09 PM
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-31-2006 09:03 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Michael, posted 03-31-2006 5:59 PM Michael has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 111 of 126 (299933)
03-31-2006 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Michael
03-31-2006 1:11 PM


Re: Be Ye Banished to Hell for not praying to ME!
Michael writes:
And if I win, I want it to be because I have played above my previous abilities, not because my opponent let me win. Winning means nothing if it is without effort.
This analogy needs some clarification.
1) God is not an opponent of us...He is an opponent of any virus we may have. Perhaps playing above our previous abilities....(doing our bvest) is an admirable game, but we can't win this game.(The game being that human wisdom needs no God) He lets us win by giving us a chance to have a tagteam partner...Jesus Christ.
In the Heavenly Court, God is both prosector and defense attorney.
Only a fool would choose to represent themselves.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Michael, posted 03-31-2006 1:11 PM Michael has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Michael, posted 03-31-2006 9:14 PM Phat has replied

  
Michael
Member (Idle past 4638 days)
Posts: 199
From: USA
Joined: 05-14-2005


Message 112 of 126 (299940)
03-31-2006 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Phat
03-31-2006 8:37 PM


Re: Be Ye Banished to Hell for not praying to ME!
This analogy needs some clarification.
Okay.
1) God is not an opponent of us...He is an opponent of any virus we may have.
If I ever had a virus, and had a game scheduled, I would most likely just call off the game.
Perhaps playing above our previous abilities....(doing our bvest) is an admirable game, but we can't win this game.
I probably wouldn't even schedule a match against an opponent who I didn't think I might beat.
(The game being that human wisdom needs no God)
And She is going to let me win this game if I choose to?
He lets us win by giving us a chance to have a tagteam partner...Jesus Christ.
I almost never play doubles. I prefer relying on myself (there ya go ...).
In the Heavenly Court, God is both prosector and defense attorney.
I have played a fair amount of tennis--I am unfamiliar with the terms "prosecutor" and "defense" with regard to the game.
Only a fool would choose to represent themselves.
As can be seen here, I can be a fool. It doesn't bother me.
Cheers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Phat, posted 03-31-2006 8:37 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Phat, posted 03-31-2006 11:41 PM Michael has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 113 of 126 (299959)
03-31-2006 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Michael
03-31-2006 9:14 PM


Re: Be Ye Banished to Hell for not praying to ME!
You got me! That was a BAD analogy!
It was more directed in a joking manner to Schrafinator rather than to everyone else, however!
Allow me to propose another analogy with somewhat of a Biblical basis...("somewhat" meaning --open to interpretation)
1) God was, Is, and Always will be. (Rev 1:18) referring to the Son and (Rev 1:8)which appears to refer to the Father. I am assuming that Revelation 1:18 refers to the Son since God the Father never was dead.
2) The Beast of Revelation Was, Is Not, and Yet is. This Beast was
  • Given power...(Rev 13:7)
  • Was, now is not, and will come up from somewhere and go to his destruction.9Rev 17:8
  • People who were written in the Book of Life will live. People whose names were not found written...will go to the destruction, somehow similar to the destruction that the Beast must endure.
    OK...Lets take Was to mean the past. Lets take Is or is not to be indicative of a present moment, arbitrarily as long as the notion of the thought is comprehended and agreed upon.
    Lets take always will be to mean now and forever.
    Lets take will go to his destruction to be a future moment not of the present one.
    Assuming that all my assumptions about these passages are correct, the only thing that matters in the present moment is communion and relationship with others. It matters not if we are playing tennis, in a courtroom, or typing replies on a chat board.
    We either are or are not in agreement concerning the communion.
    Score: Infinity-Love.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 112 by Michael, posted 03-31-2006 9:14 PM Michael has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 119 by Michael, posted 04-02-2006 1:31 PM Phat has not replied

      
    riVeRraT
    Member (Idle past 416 days)
    Posts: 5788
    From: NY USA
    Joined: 05-09-2004


    Message 114 of 126 (300048)
    04-01-2006 11:21 AM
    Reply to: Message 103 by nator
    03-31-2006 8:40 AM


    Re: But someone did
    It means nothing, really, which is my point.
    Well, yes and no.
    It's all subjective, or up to God.
    The topic was that you didn't pray. My point is that you may have people praying for you anyway. So you can't claim that everything went ok even though you didn't pray.
    What if we had had to drive through a terrible snowstorm and we had a wreck that hurt both of us seriously but not fatally? Then you could have considered your prayers answered because neither of us lost our lives.
    That doesn't matter either. You found out that people are praying for you, that is what counts.
    What effect it has on everything cannot be measured by science.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 103 by nator, posted 03-31-2006 8:40 AM nator has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 115 by nator, posted 04-01-2006 12:01 PM riVeRraT has replied

      
    nator
    Member (Idle past 2170 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 115 of 126 (300060)
    04-01-2006 12:01 PM
    Reply to: Message 114 by riVeRraT
    04-01-2006 11:21 AM


    Re: But someone did
    quote:
    That doesn't matter either. You found out that people are praying for you, that is what counts.
    It matters if you want to say that prayer has any effects upon the Universe.
    quote:
    What effect it has on everything cannot be measured by science.
    It cannot be measured at all, that's correct.
    This then means that you cannot really say if prayer has any affect on anything.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 114 by riVeRraT, posted 04-01-2006 11:21 AM riVeRraT has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 116 by riVeRraT, posted 04-01-2006 3:39 PM nator has replied

      
    riVeRraT
    Member (Idle past 416 days)
    Posts: 5788
    From: NY USA
    Joined: 05-09-2004


    Message 116 of 126 (300101)
    04-01-2006 3:39 PM
    Reply to: Message 115 by nator
    04-01-2006 12:01 PM


    Re: But someone did
    It matters if you want to say that prayer has any effects upon the Universe.
    Of course it does.
    But it is mostly a subjective thing.
    Objectively I can say that yes, prayer does make a huge difference in my life.
    Objectively I can say it makes a difference when I pray for others, especially when they say thanks for praying for me.
    It cannot be measured at all, that's correct.
    This then means that you cannot really say if prayer has any affect on anything.
    Is science completely objective?
    If it made a difference for me, then you can say it does have an effect.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 115 by nator, posted 04-01-2006 12:01 PM nator has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 120 by nator, posted 04-03-2006 5:22 PM riVeRraT has replied

      
    U can call me Cookie
    Member (Idle past 4954 days)
    Posts: 228
    From: jo'burg, RSA
    Joined: 11-15-2005


    Message 117 of 126 (300112)
    04-01-2006 4:02 PM
    Reply to: Message 105 by Michael
    03-31-2006 9:00 AM


    the balance
    Damnit, someone should be! If a God exists, she should be doing all in her power to stop all bad things from happening to people. If I thought it would be productive, I'd pray for that.
    Why?
    If a God exists, why does it have to stop "bad" things from happening?
    Usually, it is the case that bad things, or good things for that matter, are caused by something. They don't usually just happen spontaneously, in its purest sense.
    For God to stop a bad thing from happening to someone, would mean that God would have to prevent the action of someone, or something else. This would introduce a bias on the part of one of protagonist.
    Maybe i'm a little bit strange, but i don't really like the idea of divine bias... a tilting of the scales by an all-powerful (or near-all-powerful) being, feels a little off.
    If we were created, wouldn't it be best to just let us be? I could be wrong here, but i feel that things usually just tend toward equilibrium - it may not be the direction we always like, but do we really know whether or not it really is a "bad" direction?

    "The good Christian should beware the mathematician and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of hell." - St. Augustine

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 105 by Michael, posted 03-31-2006 9:00 AM Michael has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 118 by Michael, posted 04-02-2006 1:15 PM U can call me Cookie has not replied

      
    Michael
    Member (Idle past 4638 days)
    Posts: 199
    From: USA
    Joined: 05-14-2005


    Message 118 of 126 (300282)
    04-02-2006 1:15 PM
    Reply to: Message 117 by U can call me Cookie
    04-01-2006 4:02 PM


    Re: the balance
    First, I was thinking just in the context of life here on earth, and not considering the possibility of an after-life paradise. Otherwise I would have to consider the point that Modulous made here:
    Modulous writes:
    A random idea that struck me was the idea that suffering exists and that we suffer so that we know what suffering is. Why? Perhaps it makes an existence without suffering truly paradise.
    Basically, God can do something that appears cruel to us on earth, but in context of eternity is for the greater good.
    So, without considering an afterlife, I think a fully omniscient, omnipotent god should be able to do a better job of minimizing the "bad" than an indifferent universe would.
    Nothing can be defined objectively as being "bad." However, I think most people would consider the suffering caused by earthquakes to be bad. On the good side, earthquakes provide an occupation for seismologists, architects who design earthquake-resistant buildings, etc--but those people could find other occupations in the absence of earthquakes.
    So, my preferred god would understand this. She would be able to "tap" stress-points in the crust to create very tiny quakes so as to prevent the build-up of large stresses. No more suffering from earthquakes--beats the hell out of an indifferent universe.
    To tie this into the greater topic: I'd pray for that, and expect results.
    Cheers.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 117 by U can call me Cookie, posted 04-01-2006 4:02 PM U can call me Cookie has not replied

      
    Michael
    Member (Idle past 4638 days)
    Posts: 199
    From: USA
    Joined: 05-14-2005


    Message 119 of 126 (300287)
    04-02-2006 1:31 PM
    Reply to: Message 113 by Phat
    03-31-2006 11:41 PM


    Re: Be Ye Banished to Hell for not praying to ME!
    First, I think we might have been better off with the Tennis analogy--I'm having trouble finding any analogy in your latest post. Or is it your view that the entire bible is analogy?
    Second, I would suggest that, if you are introducing a heathen to the bible, you might find some other place to start than Revelations.
    Third, I think this is getting way off topic. Might be good fodder for the chat room sometime.
    Fourth:
    Score: Infinity-Love.
    I'd always wondered how to score those balls that my opponent is knocking way over the fence.
    Cheers.
    This message has been edited by Michael, 04-02-2006 01:35 PM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 113 by Phat, posted 03-31-2006 11:41 PM Phat has not replied

      
    nator
    Member (Idle past 2170 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 120 of 126 (300690)
    04-03-2006 5:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 116 by riVeRraT
    04-01-2006 3:39 PM


    Re: But someone did
    quote:
    If [prayer] made a difference for me, then you can say it does have an effect.
    The "effect" I have been talking about, as you well know, is the idea that God answers prayer, thus affecting the course of events in the Universe.
    Sure, I understand that you believe that God does this in your life, just as I understand that Hindus believe that Krishna blesses their life.
    In the end, it's all just individual assertion.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 116 by riVeRraT, posted 04-01-2006 3:39 PM riVeRraT has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 121 by riVeRraT, posted 04-03-2006 5:30 PM nator has not replied
     Message 122 by mike the wiz, posted 04-03-2006 7:21 PM nator has replied

      
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