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Author Topic:   We didn't pray
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 61 of 126 (294289)
03-11-2006 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by sidelined
03-11-2006 1:06 PM


Re: good vs bad prayers
After reading these exchanges between newer members and ones whom I have grown to know, I conclude that the ONLY effective way to "spread the Gospel" to the world is to live the gospel in front of people,(not in virtual forumland) and trust that they will be persuaded to discern a lifestyle that may better them.
As a Believer, I know that no amount of scripture that I quote,
no amount of clever words that I say, and certainly no amount of debate that I engage in shall ever persuade anyone.
I could, of course, trust that God reach everyone---in which case I would be better off not interfering--
So I now live by the adage of actions and honesty rather than words and "persuasions".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by sidelined, posted 03-11-2006 1:06 PM sidelined has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by nwr, posted 03-11-2006 1:57 PM Phat has replied
 Message 70 by ReverendDG, posted 03-12-2006 2:03 AM Phat has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 62 of 126 (294291)
03-11-2006 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
03-11-2006 1:46 PM


Re: good vs bad prayers
After reading these exchanges between newer members and ones whom I have grown to know, I conclude that the ONLY effective way to "spread the Gospel" to the world is to live the gospel in front of people, ...
And what if it turns out that some of the atheists are living the gospel more effectively than are many of the Christians?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 03-11-2006 1:46 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 03-14-2006 12:09 AM nwr has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 63 of 126 (294310)
03-11-2006 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phat
03-08-2006 9:01 AM


Re: Do Atheists/Agnostics have Guardian Angels?
quote:
Who is to say that God was not with you....despite your unbelief?
Well, that's just my point.
Who is to say that when a believer claims that God did this or that for them, that god WAS with them?
quote:
Your Faith and Belief are not in God as I see Him. Tell me a bit more about what you have faith in and what you believe about
predetermination, predestination, fate, and/or luck?
I have no religious faith.
I do not believe in predetermination, predestination, nor fate.
Luck, and chance, are goverened by the laws of probability.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 03-08-2006 9:01 AM Phat has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 64 of 126 (294315)
03-11-2006 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by veiledvirtue
03-08-2006 5:46 PM


quote:
Glad to hear your trip went nicely!
Thanks, and thanks also to everybody else's well-wishes.
quote:
I believe God works in ways we cant imagine...i think everbody wants an explaination for everything and in reality you'r not going to get it... its like saying God is mean because he pushed the bath water up into new orleans and we're comfortable putting blame on something or somebody.. isnt that the american way?
Well, that's sort of my point.
If we can't say when God helped with X or not, then how can believers ever claim to know when he did?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by veiledvirtue, posted 03-08-2006 5:46 PM veiledvirtue has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 65 of 126 (294316)
03-11-2006 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by mike the wiz
03-08-2006 6:48 PM


Re: A Cat Amongst the Pidgeons
quote:
In my experience, only my none-selfish or necessity-based prayers, are abundantly answered.
You must not ever pray for world peace or an end to hunger, or rape, or general misery, then, eh?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by mike the wiz, posted 03-08-2006 6:48 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by mike the wiz, posted 03-13-2006 10:43 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 66 of 126 (294317)
03-11-2006 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by truthlover
03-09-2006 5:40 PM


quote:
but if there are enough valid "hits" of sufficient unlikeliness, then the misses don't have to be counted.
Unless you know the total number of "trials", though, you don't have any way to calculate if the number of "hits" are greater or lesser than chance would predict.
100 positive his out of 120 trials is different than 100 hits out of 200 million trials.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-11-2006 03:53 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by truthlover, posted 03-09-2006 5:40 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by truthlover, posted 03-13-2006 10:35 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 67 of 126 (294319)
03-11-2006 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by veiledvirtue
03-11-2006 1:39 AM


Re: good vs bad prayers
What's wrong with a little confusion, anyway?
quote:
you can have it.
Without confusion and doubt there can be no learning or personal growth.
There can be only self-satisfaction and stagnation of the mind.
This message has been edited by AdminJar, 03-11-2006 03:21 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by veiledvirtue, posted 03-11-2006 1:39 AM veiledvirtue has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 03-11-2006 4:50 PM nator has not replied

  
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5851 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 68 of 126 (294324)
03-11-2006 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by nator
03-11-2006 3:56 PM


Without confusion and doubt there can be no learning or personal growth.
There can be only self-satisfaction and stagnation of the mind.
personal doubt can cause confusion both which can lead to stagnation.
Self satisfaction can lead to confidence and the willingness to go where no one has gone before.
perspective is everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by nator, posted 03-11-2006 3:56 PM nator has not replied

  
2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5851 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 69 of 126 (294328)
03-11-2006 5:05 PM


What I find fascinating is that, if a believer had been in our shoes and had the same experience of this unseasonably balmy weather and quite seamless moving experience, I am quite positive that they would have attributed it to God, even though the experiences would have been exactly the same.
Ah....the experience would not be the same. You do not believe so it would mean nothing to you. A person of faith may find meaning thereby altering the experience. Just a different perspective.
This message has been edited by 2ice_baked_taters, 03-11-2006 05:06 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by veiledvirtue, posted 03-12-2006 11:56 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

  
ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 70 of 126 (294402)
03-12-2006 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
03-11-2006 1:46 PM


Re: good vs bad prayers
I think this is a good idea phat, I think more people need to realize this is really the best way to go about reaching people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 03-11-2006 1:46 PM Phat has not replied

  
veiledvirtue
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 126 (294489)
03-12-2006 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by 2ice_baked_taters
03-11-2006 5:05 PM


quote:
2ice_baked_taters
From: Boulder Junction WI.
when i was younger i remember staying at a place called wildcat lodge up there in boulder junction...im from chicago. so many peaceful memories there. what a beautiful place. i need to retreat myself up there soon. have you heard of it?
i like your user name btw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 03-11-2006 5:05 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
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2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5851 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 72 of 126 (294534)
03-12-2006 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by veiledvirtue
03-12-2006 11:56 AM


I live close by.
Go to shelterbayresort.com
I am the guide.
Yah gotta luv my office

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by veiledvirtue, posted 03-12-2006 11:56 AM veiledvirtue has not replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 73 of 126 (294858)
03-13-2006 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by nator
03-11-2006 3:48 PM


Unless you know the total number of "trials", though, you don't have any way to calculate if the number of "hits" are greater or lesser than chance would predict.
100 positive his out of 120 trials is different than 100 hits out of 200 million trials.
Well, number one, you can always calculate a maximum # of trials for any life. One person can only pray so many prayers.
Number two, and possibly as a result of number one, there comes a point where calculating percentages becomes irrelevant. I watched a guy once step on a very large needle and rub it around on the floor. He then pushed the pin through his bicep and pull it out the other side. The wound healed in front of our eyes in about thirty seconds.
Percentages of hits to misses are irrelevant here. Something other than normal was happening. Someone could investigate to see whether it was a magic trick (illusion), whether the guy had an amazing immune system, or some other situation I can't think of, but it certainly wasn't a normal occurrence, even if that's the only time it happened.
My point, from the beginning, has been that many situations are complicated enough to warrant investigation, and that there's no simple formula for how to investigate such things. There was a faith healer who wrote a book with a number of amazing healings described. If those had all happened, it wouldn't have mattered if this woman hadn't healed anyone else, it would have been proof of some sort of power, whether that power was natural of supernatural.
Someone else investigated her, though, and found the stories impossible to validate, except for three of them (out of 72 total he looked into). So the answer was pretty simple. The things she described didn't all happen.
I'm not saying that "hits" vs. "misses" is an invalid thing to look at. Admittedly, if everyone in California prayed to win the lottery, hits vs. misses would matter when a person claimed to win the lottery by prayer. I'm just saying it's not a universal answer, and I didn't think it was very applicable to the things I described earlier in this thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by nator, posted 03-11-2006 3:48 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by nator, posted 03-13-2006 11:02 AM truthlover has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 74 of 126 (294865)
03-13-2006 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by nator
03-11-2006 3:36 PM


Re: A Cat Amongst the Pidgeons
You must not ever pray for world peace or an end to hunger, or rape, or general misery, then, eh?
It's true. I don't pray for those things.
Don't think me cold, because I've always thought that this was given to us to sort out. Afterall, man is not omnipotent but he could end starvation and achieve world peace by this time tomorrow.
I've dealt with these things practically rather than prayerfully.
But generally, I don't make general prayers. I make specific ones. If there is an ill person, I'll pray for them.
I wouldn't pray for world peace or an end to hunger because I know God wouldn't answer those requests.
Don't forget, I base how I act on what Christ alone, said. He said we'd always have the poor, and he never indicated he would sort out the world untill the judgement. I simply don't regard myself as important enough to make such requests.
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 03-13-2006 10:46 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by nator, posted 03-11-2006 3:36 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by nator, posted 03-13-2006 11:14 AM mike the wiz has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 75 of 126 (294877)
03-13-2006 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by truthlover
03-13-2006 10:35 AM


"enough" is the key word here
quote:
Well, number one, you can always calculate a maximum # of trials for any life. One person can only pray so many prayers.
Can you, though?
I have my doubts about the accuracy of documentation here.
quote:
Number two, and possibly as a result of number one, there comes a point where calculating percentages becomes irrelevant.
I strongly disagree, considering I was replying to this claim of yours:
but if there are enough valid "hits" of sufficient unlikeliness, then the misses don't have to be counted.
The misses ALWAYS have to be counted, otherwise we have no way of knowing how likely or unlikely any of the hits were.
Otherwise, falling victim to confirmation bias is very nearly a sure thing.
Unlikely things happen to people all the time.
quote:
I watched a guy once step on a very large needle and rub it around on the floor. He then pushed the pin through his bicep and pull it out the other side. The wound healed in front of our eyes in about thirty seconds.
Percentages of hits to misses are irrelevant here.
Not true.
quote:
Something other than normal was happening. Someone could investigate to see whether it was a magic trick (illusion), whether the guy had an amazing immune system, or some other situation I can't think of, but it certainly wasn't a normal occurrence, even if that's the only time it happened.
Well, yes, I'm not saying it was a "normal" occurence. But if you are trying to tell me that this was some kind of supernatural occurence, there is a LOT more in the way of controls and testing I would want to put the guy through before I bought that something other than a freakshow act was going on.
I watched a man chew up and eat a lightbulb without harm once, too.
Like I said, unlikely things happen to people all the time.
For example, isn't it incredibly unlikely for the temperature to be in the 40's in New England in mid-February on the exact days that I would want it to be during my move?
quote:
My point, from the beginning, has been that many situations are complicated enough to warrant investigation, and that there's no simple formula for how to investigate such things.
Actually, there is a pretty straightforward way to investigate much of this.
quote:
There was a faith healer who wrote a book with a number of amazing healings described. If those had all happened, it wouldn't have mattered if this woman hadn't healed anyone else, it would have been proof of some sort of power, whether that power was natural of supernatural.
Correct.
quote:
Someone else investigated her, though, and found the stories impossible to validate, except for three of them (out of 72 total he looked into). So the answer was pretty simple. The things she described didn't all happen.
Right.
quote:
I'm not saying that "hits" vs. "misses" is an invalid thing to look at. Admittedly, if everyone in California prayed to win the lottery, hits vs. misses would matter when a person claimed to win the lottery by prayer. I'm just saying it's not a universal answer, and I didn't think it was very applicable to the things I described earlier in this thread.
It was applicable to the claim you made:
but if there are enough valid "hits" of sufficient unlikeliness, then the misses don't have to be counted.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-13-2006 11:07 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by truthlover, posted 03-13-2006 10:35 AM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by NosyNed, posted 03-13-2006 11:21 AM nator has replied
 Message 81 by truthlover, posted 03-13-2006 1:48 PM nator has not replied

  
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