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Author Topic:   How to explain disbelief in the all-important Bible?
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 46 of 59 (435440)
11-20-2007 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by subbie
11-20-2007 11:07 PM


Re: Shakespeare vs. the bible
subbie
Let us not forget that Shakespeare also held a greater esteem for the follies of humans and their politics than does the bible.We might also mention he had a far greater sense of humor too.

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pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 47 of 59 (435443)
11-20-2007 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by bluegenes
11-20-2007 6:39 PM


"How do I know that the majority of people in the world aren't Christians? Can't we just take their word for it?"
I don't know. How many people have you asked? I thought you were stating it as a known fact.
"I think it's something to do with coming to earth himself, as his son, to save us around 2000 years ago, plus numerous other details."
This god doesn't seem worth his salt if this is the best he can do. Kills his son, inspire the bible and then have the human race fighting over them for 2000yrs. Maybe this partly explains disbelief in the all important bible?

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 Message 36 by bluegenes, posted 11-20-2007 6:39 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by bluegenes, posted 11-21-2007 4:31 AM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 48 of 59 (435447)
11-21-2007 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Taz
11-20-2007 6:45 PM


"You honestly believe the majority of the world are christian?"
No. I haven't a clue. It is not what I was saying at all. Bluejeans was stating categorically that the majority are NOT christians. Given the bible is so widely promoted, (even by the president of the United States and the pope,) I asked how did he know this to be true?

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pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 49 of 59 (435449)
11-21-2007 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by molbiogirl
11-20-2007 6:49 PM


Thanks. I wonder who compiled those statistics?
"We present data from both primary research sources such as government census reports, statistical sampling surveys and organizational reporting, as well as citations from secondary literature which mention adherent statistics."
Hmmmmm..................

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pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 50 of 59 (435454)
11-21-2007 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by subbie
11-20-2007 11:07 PM


Re: Shakespeare vs. the bible
That's certainly one way of putting it. Do you think the content of the bible could make it a best seller without the religious connoctations?

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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 51 of 59 (435473)
11-21-2007 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by subbie
11-20-2007 11:07 PM


Re: Shakespeare vs. the bible
Sounds like something that Thomas Paine had pointed out. Some books are valuable because of their inherent worth; eg, Shakespeare, Euclid. And some books are only valuable because of who wrote them; eg, the Bible of which it is claimed that God wrote it, with Moses as collaborator on the first five books. If it were to turn out that Euclid or Shakespeare never wrote what's attributed to them, or never even existed for that matter, then the value of the books attributed to them would be no less valuable. If it were to turn out that a book valued only for its purported authorship was not actually written by that author, then that book would be deemed worthless.
So, if the only thing that makes the Bible valuable is the claim that God wrote it, then unless one held that belief, what possible worth could it have? I mean -- hello! -- why would a nonbeliever lend any credence at all to the Bible if the only thing it has going for it is the wild and unsubstantiated claim that God (in whom they do not believe, mind you) wrote it. Duh?
But if we view it as the collected wisdom of an entire people, then it starts to take on some inherent value. Human nature is, after all, universal.
And then there's Suds' proposal. This guy, a Christian, who used to be on CompuServe had some weird ideas, many of them involving a kind of word magick that if we say something is a certain way then it becomes that way. However, he did say something that made a lot of sense: it would not matter one bit if Christianity is not the least bit true, because the history of Europe was shaped by people who believed it to be true. Christianity actually being true? Completely unimportant. The results and consequences of people acting with the mere belief that Christianity is true. Important. In case it's not clear, if everybody acts as if a delusion were true, then the consequences would be the same whether that delusion is true or not -- assuming, of course, that that delusion does not immediately contrary the laws of nature, like believing that we can breathe under water.
So, to the extent that the Bible is responsible for shaping our society's history, it would be important. Though actually, the Bible itself did less than one would think, because a lot of Christian beliefs are of extra-biblical origin, including the beliefs of Christians who claim to only believe in the Bible.
And if you deal with art or literature, then a knowledge of the Bible would be valuable because stories and themes from the Bible were heavily used as source material. As were pagan myths, so those are also valuable to learn.
Edited by dwise1, : No reason given.
Edited by dwise1, : No reason given.

{When you search for God, y}ou can't go to the people who believe already. They've made up their minds and want to convince you of their own personal heresy.
("The Jehovah Contract", AKA "Der Jehova-Vertrag", by Viktor Koman, 1984)
And we who listen to the stars, or walk the dusty grade,
Or break the very atoms down to see how they are made,
Or study cells, or living things, seek truth with open hand.
The profoundest act of worship is to try to understand.
Deep in flower and in flesh, in star and soil and seed,
The truth has left its living word for anyone to read.
So turn and look where best you think the story is unfurled.
Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote the world.

(filk song "Word of God" by Dr. Catherine Faber, No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.echoschildren.org/CDlyrics/WORDGOD.HTML)

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 52 of 59 (435477)
11-21-2007 4:31 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by pelican
11-20-2007 11:31 PM


Heinrik writes:
I don't know. How many people have you asked? I thought you were stating it as a known fact.
Plenty of surveys have been done. All, however they're done and whoever by, come up with Christians as being less than a third of the world's population. Islam and Hinduism combined have more followers than Christianity. Then there's all the rest.
I was "stating it as a known fact".
It is a well known fact (outside your village )
P.S. The quote boxes are a great feature of this site, don't you think?

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 Message 47 by pelican, posted 11-20-2007 11:31 PM pelican has replied

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 Message 53 by pelican, posted 11-21-2007 8:49 AM bluegenes has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 53 of 59 (435500)
11-21-2007 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by bluegenes
11-21-2007 4:31 AM


Did you see post 41?

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 Message 52 by bluegenes, posted 11-21-2007 4:31 AM bluegenes has replied

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 Message 55 by bluegenes, posted 11-21-2007 9:34 AM pelican has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 54 of 59 (435501)
11-21-2007 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by pelican
11-21-2007 8:49 AM


Post 41
Did you see post 41?
I have seen it. It confirms what bluegenes says.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
Did you know that most of the time your computer is doing nothing? What if you could make it do something really useful? Like helping scientists understand diseases? Your computer could even be instrumental in finding a cure for HIV/AIDS. Wouldn't that be something? If you agree, then join World Community Grid now and download a simple, free tool that lets you and your computer do your share in helping humanity. After all, you are part of it, so why not take part in it?

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 55 of 59 (435507)
11-21-2007 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by pelican
11-21-2007 8:49 AM


Heinrik writes:
Did you see post 41?
Yes, and I've known the website that it links to for a long time.
Why do you ask?

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 Message 53 by pelican, posted 11-21-2007 8:49 AM pelican has replied

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 Message 56 by pelican, posted 11-21-2007 10:17 AM bluegenes has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 56 of 59 (435510)
11-21-2007 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by bluegenes
11-21-2007 9:34 AM


I asked because you said, ""How do I know that the majority of people in the world aren't Christians? Can't we just take their word for it?" and it seemed you didn't know the answer.
The initial point I was making in response to the original post was that 'belief in anything does not make it true, no matter if it is believed by the majority'. Given the statistics in post 41, billions believe in a god that they do not know, that they have no experience of and those who claim to, experience god only from within, including jesus.
It is the minority who make these claims of a real god through personal experience and they are believed by a majority who really haven't a clue. This imaginary god that is unique to each individual is causing huge divisions within the human race. It seems to me that the belief in a religious god has been proved to be false.
The time is coming when we shall not attribute the good things in life to god and the bad things to the devil. We will take responsibility for our own creations, experiences, humanity and the world. Amen to that!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by bluegenes, posted 11-21-2007 9:34 AM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by bluegenes, posted 11-21-2007 10:47 AM pelican has replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 57 of 59 (435512)
11-21-2007 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by pelican
11-21-2007 10:17 AM


Heinrik writes:
I asked because you said, ""How do I know that the majority of people in the world aren't Christians? Can't we just take their word for it?" and it seemed you didn't know the answer.
Surveys like that rely on people's self-descriptions, which is what I meant by taking their word for it. I was assuming that you would know that surveys on who believes what do take place.
The initial point I was making in response to the original post was that 'belief in anything does not make it true, no matter if it is believed by the majority'. Given the statistics in post 41, billions believe in a god that they do not know, that they have no experience of and those who claim to, experience god only from within, including jesus.
No problem. What I picked up on was a phrase which suggested that most people were Christians, that's all. I was just making a technical correction.
It is the minority who make these claims of a real god through personal experience and they are believed by a majority who really haven't a clue. This imaginary god that is unique to each individual is causing huge divisions within the human race. It seems to me that the belief in a religious god has been proved to be false.
I agree with your "huge divisions" point, but another slight technical suggestion. The belief in the existence of a God of some kind has not been proven false. I say this without prejudice, as an atheist. Fairies, incidentally, haven't been proven to be non-existent either.
The time is coming when we shall not attribute the good things in life to god and the bad things to the devil. We will take responsibility for our own creations, experiences, humanity and the world. Amen to that!
Amen to that, indeed, although I won't live to see the day when the majority of the world will tick the "no religion" box in these surveys mentioned above. In Europe, maybe, but not world-wide for a while yet.

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 Message 56 by pelican, posted 11-21-2007 10:17 AM pelican has replied

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pelican
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 58 of 59 (435580)
11-21-2007 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by bluegenes
11-21-2007 10:47 AM


Yes, technically there is no proof that one religious god does not exist and none to prove it does, but does it have to be proved physically? Cannot reason and logic give us the truth?
It seems to me the majority of believers have all their beliefs of god based on a 'holy' book, totally void of any experience. The beliefs are strong because of emotional attachments, especially fear and it is fearful. Without belief in god, what is there?

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Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 59 of 59 (435694)
11-22-2007 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by pelican
11-21-2007 6:02 PM


It seems to me the majority of believers have all their beliefs of god based on a 'holy' book
I'm not sure about that. Most of the religious people I've spoken to believe not so much because "it is written", but out of a sense of personal revelation and/or closeness to "god". All the holy books do, IMHO, is give these feelings something to attach to.

Mutate and Survive

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