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Author Topic:   Christianity, the Soul, and Brain Damage
Unseul
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 42 (108691)
05-16-2004 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Yaro
05-16-2004 1:29 PM


I think it was a Robert Winston one. Possibly even The Human Mind. I remember seeing it myself, the guy couldnt even recognise his wife, he had to rely on remembering her clothing etc to know who she was when they went shopping.
I saw another similar thing on tele which described that our ability to recognise faces kicks in properly at around 6 months. Before this age if u show a baby lots of picture of lemurs (i think thats what they used) the baby could discern each different lemur from facial features and so retained interest, older children soon grew bored of seeing what they assumed was just the same lemur. The brain is thought to start specialising in human faces to allow us to remember such a great diversity.
Unseul

Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 32 of 42 (108706)
05-16-2004 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by paisano
05-16-2004 12:12 PM


paisano
Are the concepts that make the pattterns significant, themselves physical ?
Since it is a physical brain that allows us to interpret patterns as significant then the patterns themselves occur as a consequence of the brains capabilities.We have chemical mediation of electrical signals in the brain and,indeed,in the rest of the body. If we interrupt the signals in some fashion we can alter or obliterate any pattern "sense" within the physical brain. The ingestion of narcotics such as morphine alter the perception of pain "patterns."
We can alter perception just by utilizing pattern seeking areas within the brain itself as we well know from viewing illusions such as necker cubes.
The pattern recognizing portions of the brain itself are likely one
of the subsystems that allow for concepts themselves to occur.

"For the mind of man is far from the nature of clear and equal glass,wherein the beams of things should reflect according to their true incidence;nay,it is rather like an enchanted glass,full of superstition and imposture.if it be not delivered and reduced." Sir Francis Bacon

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Replies to this message:
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paisano
Member (Idle past 6422 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 33 of 42 (108721)
05-16-2004 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by sidelined
05-16-2004 9:33 PM


I'm not arguing that pattern recognition itself can't be reduced to algorithms. I've done some of that myself. It is the interpretation of the pattern's significance that to me, seems at least somewhat non-algorithmic.
The whole Godel incompleteness theorem business and all that.
Not sure that resolves anything...we may have to agree to disagree.
The physical link to consciousness might be more of a problem for a fundamentalist. I am willing to leave it at "I don't know"...but I don't see it as a particular issue for Catholic belief. We might be forced to reevaluate certain formulations, but that's happened before.
I'd like to hear a Buddhist's take on this issue as well, if there are any around.

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 34 of 42 (108731)
05-17-2004 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by paisano
05-16-2004 11:23 PM


paisano
Well,there is an interpretaion part in the brain as is evidenced by the ability of illusions to fool us into seeing that which does not exist in fact. Drug or injury induced experiences can force the brain into errors in interpretation so it stands to reason that the brain also has a physical basis to interpretation.
Is there a particular facet of human actions that you feel cannot be explained by the interaction of the brain with its enviroment?

"For the mind of man is far from the nature of clear and equal glass,wherein the beams of things should reflect according to their true incidence;nay,it is rather like an enchanted glass,full of superstition and imposture.if it be not delivered and reduced." Sir Francis Bacon

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 35 of 42 (108844)
05-17-2004 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by DC85
05-16-2004 1:56 AM


DC85 quote:
______________________________________________________________________
I can't feel God... no matter how hard I have tried I can't! Should I be held accountable for this? Can I help this? Do I just pretend? Is that the same?
______________________________________________________________________
Feelings are totally irrelevant because they can deceive. The issue is: Do you want God ?
God is not obligated to respond to anyone UNTIL genuine prayer is made AND a continuing act of faith is commensed upon that prayer. When these conditions are met THEN God will decide how to reveal Himself to you and answer your prayer.
Feelings come into play AFTER relationship is established.
DC85 quote:
______________________________________________________________________
What about people born with High levels and low levels of these hormones?(VERY Common) this is why some people are more angry then others... should they be accountable for actions?
______________________________________________________________________
To even introduce this notion is creating a basis to excuse irrational behavior. When this is accepted then everyone will claim they are not responsible for their actions. Only naieve and/or dishonest people will embrace this nonsense.
I think it is reprehensible that persons are even allowed to claim temporary insanity in criminal proceedings.
But the context is what God will/should do ?
God sees the heart and mind. He knows if the person is faking it or not.
DC85 asks: Should murderers be accountable ?
I will excuse this question due to temporary insanity.
People like you search high and low for excuses to justify and rationalize behavior that lands them in trouble. You are really looking for special treatment and exemptions to whitewash your bad choices at the expense of persons who make good choices.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by DC85, posted 05-16-2004 1:56 AM DC85 has replied

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DC85
Member (Idle past 379 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 36 of 42 (108875)
05-17-2004 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Cold Foreign Object
05-17-2004 3:43 PM


To even introduce this notion is creating a basis to excuse irrational behavior. When this is accepted then everyone will claim they are not responsible for their actions. Only naieve and/or dishonest people will embrace this nonsense.
nonsense? what nonsense? It is proven the level of hormones controls your behavior... Does this or does it not contradict the idea of the soul? If its hormones how can one have a good or bad soul? There are now pills for people with anger problems Because of this proven fact.
God sees the heart and mind. He knows if the person is faking it or not.
faking what? If I am a passive person why fake being an angry one?
DC85 asks: Should murderers be accountable ?
I will excuse this question due to temporary insanity
temporary insanity?? where? If the brains work different its more like permanent insanity don't you think?
You are really looking for special treatment and exemptions to whitewash your bad choices at the expense of persons who make good choices.
I am? news to me.... I accept responsibility for my actions and I do know what right and wrong(in our culture) and have feelings not to do it... but things happen.. But you can't seem to
realize is not everyone is the same! Its not a persons fault if they have a short fuse just like its not someone’s fault they are passive and calm. Its all hormones and chemical imbalances
PLEASE explain what a soul does
This message has been edited by DC85, 05-17-2004 05:20 PM

My site The Atheist Bible
My New Debate Fourms!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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paisano
Member (Idle past 6422 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 37 of 42 (108892)
05-17-2004 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by DC85
05-17-2004 6:19 PM


Off-topic: I'm new here. What's the colored bar labeled AM for ?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by AdminAsgara, posted 05-17-2004 7:17 PM paisano has replied

  
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 38 of 42 (108895)
05-17-2004 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by paisano
05-17-2004 7:12 PM


Hi Paisano, welcome to EvC.
The AM bar is an activity meter. The more posts a thread recieves in a short period of time the higher the meter registers.

AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe

This message is a reply to:
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paisano
Member (Idle past 6422 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 39 of 42 (108938)
05-17-2004 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by AdminAsgara
05-17-2004 7:17 PM


Thanks. I thought it was "animosity meter" and was happy this thread was still in the green

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 40 of 42 (108941)
05-17-2004 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by DC85
05-17-2004 6:19 PM


DC85 writes:
PLEASE explain what the soul does?
The soul provides much needed comfort to reduce the anxiety of a species of neurotic apes known as Homosapiens sapiens.

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

This message is a reply to:
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Sleeping Dragon
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 42 (110400)
05-25-2004 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by NosyNed
05-15-2004 4:24 AM


Re: Personality vs. memory
To NosyNed:
Sorry for the late reply.
Thanks for the reference. I am familiar with the twins study, and would like to thank you for reminding me. I hesitated to discuss the notion because I wanted to focus on the nurture aspect of personality (especially those as a result of memory) as well as the implications of personality change as a result of memory loss.

"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

This message is a reply to:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 42 of 42 (276302)
01-06-2006 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by nator
05-16-2004 1:32 AM


Again, I will say I do not have any answers to this problem. I have been asking a few people about it, and I seek answers too.
Since he was perfectly able to communicate, and from what I have read about him (Phineas Gage, and it was tamping iron that was driven into his brain by an explosion), there is no reason to believe that he thought he was acting any differently that he always had.
My Father was hit in the head with a baseball bat when he was a kid. He noticed a change in his thinking process, and he felt he wasn't as smart as before. This fustrated him to this day.
But I don't know, see I believe God will judge us based on what we know, and what we are capable of based on our life, not what everyone else thinks is right and wrong.
Which medical institutions have actually documented miracles, and when?
I've been trying to find that out. I do not know if it is documented as a miracle by the institution, but if the description fits then I guess it is up to you to decide.
I think the doctor told them there was no other explanantion. He had an EVM? A tangle of blood vessels behind the eye, that required almost immediate surgery. When he went in, the took another MRI, and it was gone.
I became a much more patient, less judgemental, happier person when I stopped believing in the supernatural.
You know, I totally understand that. I too became much more patient when I was 8 and stopped believing in God, and getting yelled at by the nun for asking a valid question in CCD class. The only time I got angry, was when I was in church.

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