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Author Topic:   Organized Religion & personal Spirituality
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 130 (197921)
04-09-2005 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Silent H
04-08-2005 2:19 PM


Re: the pope and the traditions of mourning
holmes writes me:
quote:
Its like we've created an emotional pressure cooker and its warping society's usual coping mechanisms.
Your metaphor isn't quite perfect since pressure cookers don't always warp things, but the point is taken. That's an excellent way of putting it. I agree that the non-stop coverage and adulation of the pope, like the coverage of Reagan last year, is very much like a pressure cooker, only one with a clogged escape valve.

Keep America Safe AND Free!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Silent H, posted 04-08-2005 2:19 PM Silent H has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 47 of 130 (197940)
04-09-2005 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by berberry
04-09-2005 1:34 PM


Re: upside down
If you break the speed limit and there is no one around, is it really a crime?
If you break the speed limit and there is no one around but a camera which catches your speed an license plate number, is it a crime?
it would be necessary to do something to protect those victims.
Nitpicking... I think you meant to say prevent people from becoming victims, not protect the victims. The latter is usually about victims rights.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by berberry, posted 04-09-2005 1:34 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by berberry, posted 04-09-2005 8:13 PM Silent H has not replied

berberry
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 130 (197958)
04-09-2005 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Silent H
04-09-2005 4:57 PM


Re: upside down
quote:
If you break the speed limit and there is no one around, is it really a crime?
Reminds me of the question "if a man says something in a forest, but no woman is around to hear him, is he still wrong?"
quote:
Nitpicking... I think you meant to say prevent people from becoming victims, not protect the victims. The latter is usually about victims rights.
Yes, that's what I meant. Thank you.

Keep America Safe AND Free!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Silent H, posted 04-09-2005 4:57 PM Silent H has not replied

IANAT
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 130 (197961)
04-09-2005 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by StormWolfx2x
04-08-2005 3:40 AM


you have biased views of Islamic state
An Islamic state, by definition, would preclude practicing other religions in peace.
Not true. You have been brainwashed by propaganda and think that because one or two Islamic states have been overzealous, then all are and in future all would be so.
Non-Muslims can practice their religion at home in peace without interference. They do this now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by StormWolfx2x, posted 04-08-2005 3:40 AM StormWolfx2x has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by jar, posted 04-09-2005 9:27 PM IANAT has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 50 of 130 (197963)
04-09-2005 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by IANAT
04-09-2005 8:38 PM


Re: you have biased views of Islamic state
Non-Muslims can practice their religion at home in peace without interference. They do this now.
They must be able to do so in public as well.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by IANAT, posted 04-09-2005 8:38 PM IANAT has not replied

IANAT
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 130 (197981)
04-09-2005 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by nator
04-08-2005 7:18 PM


Re: upside down
schrafinater writes:
Can you tell me how, under an Islamic government, I would have more personal freedom and control over my life, than I do now?
That would not be the point of an Islamic "government" as you put it. The point is to have a way of life that supports and encourages the chosen faith, and not have the freedoms of infidels tempt the faithful with drugs, porn, promoting homosexuality, and other behaviour forbidden by the Quaran. An Islamic woman is more concerned about how Allah thinks of her behaviour than self-centered desires.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by nator, posted 04-08-2005 7:18 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by nator, posted 04-09-2005 10:48 PM IANAT has replied
 Message 53 by crashfrog, posted 04-10-2005 12:09 AM IANAT has replied
 Message 54 by Silent H, posted 04-10-2005 4:35 AM IANAT has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 52 of 130 (197985)
04-09-2005 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by IANAT
04-09-2005 10:35 PM


Re: upside down
Can you tell me how, under an Islamic government, I would have more personal freedom and control over my life, than I do now?
quote:
That would not be the point of an Islamic "government" as you put it. The point is to have a way of life that supports and encourages the chosen faith,
But Islam is not my chosen faith.
I don't have a chosen faith at all, so being under an Islamic government would, by definition, undermine my chosen non-faith, my chosen way of life.
...so, less freedom for me.
quote:
and not have the freedoms of infidels tempt the faithful with drugs, porn, promoting homosexuality, and other behaviour forbidden by the Quaran.
...so, you are saying that I would be less free under an Islamic state, then, correct?
I would not be free to enjoy a glass of wine with dinner, or view a museum exhibit of Botticelli's work, for example, correct?
quote:
An Islamic woman is more concerned about how Allah thinks of her behaviour than self-centered desires.
But I am not an Islamic woman.
...and why do there seem to be so many different people claiming to speak for Allah with regards to how women should behave?
Which one is correct?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by IANAT, posted 04-09-2005 10:35 PM IANAT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by IANAT, posted 04-10-2005 8:55 AM nator has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 53 of 130 (197994)
04-10-2005 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by IANAT
04-09-2005 10:35 PM


promoting homosexuality
Who do you believe is "promoting homosexuality"? Since the scientific consensus is that sexual orientation is determined at birth, and certainly not by choice, what would be the point in "promoting" it?
That would be like promoting "being black" or "being a woman." I mean, we should certainly support people who are those things, but there's not much point in promoting something you have no choice in being, is there?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by IANAT, posted 04-09-2005 10:35 PM IANAT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by IANAT, posted 04-10-2005 9:24 AM crashfrog has replied
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 04-10-2005 12:56 PM crashfrog has replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 54 of 130 (198013)
04-10-2005 4:35 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by IANAT
04-09-2005 10:35 PM


Re: upside down
The point is to have a way of life that supports and encourages the chosen faith, and not have the freedoms of infidels tempt the faithful with drugs, porn, promoting homosexuality, and other behaviour forbidden by the Quaran.
If the people are not free to choose to practice that way of life, and instead are obligate under law to practice it, then isn't that a lack of faith in the power of your religion?
In any case it certainly undercuts your arguments about freedom of religion under a religious gov't.
Of course I would still like to see you address the reply I wrote earlier which pointed out you do not speak for "Islam" or what an "Islamic government" would be like. Let's say one gets installed... whose version of Islam will be set into law, and why?
An Islamic woman is more concerned about how Allah thinks of her behaviour than self-centered desires.
Yes, and some believe Allah cares whether her head and face are covered and some do not. Which ones get legal power? They are both Islamic.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by IANAT, posted 04-09-2005 10:35 PM IANAT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by IANAT, posted 04-10-2005 12:33 PM Silent H has replied

IANAT
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 130 (198034)
04-10-2005 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by nator
04-09-2005 10:48 PM


Re: upside down
schrafinator writes:
I would not be free to enjoy a glass of wine with dinner, or view a museum exhibit of Botticelli's work, for example, correct?
You can do this in Saudi Arabia in an American compound, but this would not be appropriate in public, because you would be setting an example of putting materialistic pleasures above obedience of the Quran. A woman who faithfully follows the teachings would not want to do as you say. That is not a restriction of freedom. It is a proper way of life.
I understand that you do not understand. You probably think the same thought about me.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by crashfrog, posted 04-10-2005 11:45 AM IANAT has replied
 Message 83 by StormWolfx2x, posted 04-12-2005 3:20 AM IANAT has not replied

IANAT
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 130 (198036)
04-10-2005 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by crashfrog
04-10-2005 12:09 AM


Whether homosexuality is inherited, or a change occurs in childhood, or whatever does not matter. There are behaviours that are forbidden. Science may find out that some people are born with a tendency towards murder, but surely you don't advocate freedom to murder?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by crashfrog, posted 04-10-2005 12:09 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 57 of 130 (198043)
04-10-2005 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by IANAT
04-10-2005 9:24 AM


There are behaviours that are forbidden.
Forbidden by whom? And for what reason? Who gets hurt by two women having sex?
Science may find out that some people are born with a tendency towards murder, but surely you don't advocate freedom to murder?
Surely you're not saying that two women having sex with each other is as bad an act as murder, which results in the end of a human life?
That's pretty dumb.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by IANAT, posted 04-10-2005 9:24 AM IANAT has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 58 of 130 (198044)
04-10-2005 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by IANAT
04-10-2005 8:55 AM


Re: upside down
A woman who faithfully follows the teachings would not want to do as you say. That is not a restriction of freedom.
Its certainly a restriction of your freedom to disagree with what it means to "faithfully follow the teachings."
I guess I don't understand. Are you just playing the devil's advocate, or actually advocating for Muslim theocracy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by IANAT, posted 04-10-2005 8:55 AM IANAT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by IANAT, posted 04-10-2005 12:53 PM crashfrog has replied

IANAT
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 130 (198054)
04-10-2005 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Silent H
04-10-2005 4:35 AM


Re: upside down
holmes writes:
If the people are not free to choose to practice that way of life, and instead are obligate under law to practice it, then isn't that a lack of faith in the power of your religion?
No. And there is no law that orders anyone to practice a religion in an Islamic state. The law simply reinforces desired conditions and behaviours that the Quran teaches.
Of course I would still like to see you address the reply I wrote earlier which pointed out you do not speak for "Islam" or what an "Islamic government" would be like. Let's say one gets installed... whose version of Islam will be set into law, and why?
some believe Allah cares whether her head and face are covered and some do not. Which ones get legal power? They are both Islamic.
Sorry, but I do not want to take the time to explain my understanding of how clerics in different countries decide how to rule in those countries.
The concept is to "strive" to please Allah. An Islamic government will help, not hinder, this striving. Why make striving more difficult? This is how we wish to live.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Silent H, posted 04-10-2005 4:35 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by crashfrog, posted 04-10-2005 12:37 PM IANAT has replied
 Message 70 by Silent H, posted 04-10-2005 4:42 PM IANAT has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 60 of 130 (198055)
04-10-2005 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by IANAT
04-10-2005 12:33 PM


Re: upside down
No. And there is no law that orders anyone to practice a religion in an Islamic state. The law simply reinforces desired conditions and behaviours that the Quran teaches.
How is that different? I mean, if you were going to make a law that said "you have to do these things that this religion states", and that religion was based on the Quran, wouldn't this be exactly what you would wind up with? A set of laws that mandated behaviors that the Quran teaches?
What you're describing is literally what it would mean to have a government mandate a certain religion.
This is how we wish to live.
Well, no, it's not. If it was about how you wished to live, you would just live that way, and you wouldn't need laws mandating it.
What this is about is how you wish others to live. Lets call a spade a spade, ok?
This message has been edited by crashfrog, 04-10-2005 11:39 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by IANAT, posted 04-10-2005 12:33 PM IANAT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by IANAT, posted 04-10-2005 1:15 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 72 by contracycle, posted 04-11-2005 7:15 AM crashfrog has not replied

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