ramifications of omnipotence for God

I can only conclude several things:

God foreknew that humanity would reach for the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. God was not disappointed since He obviously foreknew the act would happen.

​

The first act of "disobedience" was not original sin. It was more like original choice, or freewill. IMB, God also foreknew that humans would decide for themselves what right and wrong in everyday life shall be.

​

If God foreknows that some humans will make bad choices and decisions, He is not necessarily *evil* for failing to rescue them if he sent a lifeboat, a helicopter, and a well meaning friend to meet them at their points of need. (needing a better answer)

​

We can't simply call God evil for refusing to change our freely chosen destinies now, can we? (Even if we called Him evil, it wouldn't change anything except to leave a bitter feeling in our guts as we died an unglorious death.)

Phat writes:

quote:

---

God foreknew that humanity would reach for the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. God was not disappointed since He obviously foreknew the act would happen.

---

And thus, by punishing us, god shows himself to be malevolent. God set us up.

quote:

---

If God foreknows that some humans will make bad choices and decisions, He is not necessarily *evil* for failing to rescue them if he sent a lifeboat, a helicopter, and a well meaning friend to meet them at their points of need. (needing a better answer)

---

But he didn't send any of those. Remember, Adam and Eve hadn't eaten from the tree yet and thus were incapable of comprehending what god was talking about.Knowing this, why didn't god simply remove the tree? Isn't god capable of anything? Then why would he set us up?Or better yet, why didn't god simply create humans that had free will but wouldn't sin? Isn't god capable of anything? Then why would he set us up?

quote:

---

We can't simply call God evil for refusing to change our freely chosen destinies now, can we?

---

We can if he could have done something about it. That's the point:Is god capable of stopping evil and willing to do it? Then whence cometh evil?Is god willing to stop evil but is incapable of doing it? Then god is impotent.Is god unwilling to stop evil and incapable of doing it? Then why call him god?And most relevant: Is god capable of stopping evil but not willing to do it? Then god is malevolent.So which is it? If you agree that god is capable, then either god is evil or we have a big problem as to why evil is in the world.

quote:

---

(Even if we called Him evil, it wouldn't change anything except to leave a bitter feeling in our guts as we died an unglorious death.)

---

Huh? The opinions of malevolence are of no concern. We will die a glorious death on our terms, not the terms of evil.You're not about to invoke Pascal's Wager, are you?

---

Rrhain

---

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Phat, the issue isn't god's failure to "rescue" anyone. The issue is god putting them there in the first place KNOWING they would fail.You have discussed this exact thing numerous times and you still can't make the distinction?

Of course. The way that I see it, however, is that the only people who insist that God must be evil for foreknowing their eventual demise are the people who simply refuse to acknowledge God as God in the first place.The argument is really a non-argument as we have no actual case studies to follow through the portal of time. All we have to work with are hypothetical scenarios.My fallback position is that anyone with half a brain would never allow themselves to cling to their cherished freewill if they had any unction that God existed and did not approve. If they did, the blame would not be on God for foreknowing creating them as stubborn. (Of course this leads to the question of why God then allowed freewill in the first place if there were to be conditions attached to it! )

We are not now talking about Adam and Eves dilemma. We are talking about our own relationship with this God of the Bible. You have, of course, declared that your God is not the Christian God. Thus, I cannot comment on your relationship. I can get an inkling by your response, however. To Wit: *pause*
Are you saying that you have the right and power to not only micromanage your life but to in fact micromanage your death? If so, where does God fit in? As an unbiased observer? Kinda strips Him of His omnipotent quality. I suppose He did give you freewill, however...so who am I to quibble? I guess I am not a Calvinist. They maintain that God had to give me the ability to acknowledge Him I suppose that spiritually I could micromanage my decision to surrender to Him, as I would undoubtedly surrender upon physical death, anyway.

Well, since I have explained to you many times why your god is evil, and since I acknowledge GOD as God in the first place, that statement is patently false and yet another misrepresentation. Why? Of course it would be. Who else could be at fault other than God?

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Phat responds to Asgara:

quote:

---

the only people who insist that God must be evil for foreknowing their eventual demise are the people who simply refuse to acknowledge God as God in the first place.

---

Huh? I'm fine with god being malevolent. Are you willing to say the same?

quote:

---

The argument is really a non-argument as we have no actual case studies to follow through the portal of time.

---

Huh? What is the point of Genesis 2-3? Even as a metaphor rather than as a literal story, it portrays god as malevolent. How is the very text we're arguing about not an "actual case study"?

quote:

---

My fallback position is that anyone with half a brain would never allow themselves to cling to their cherished freewill if they had any unction that God existed and did not approve.

---

Huh? If you're working with the assumption that god is good, then why on earth abandon your free will? It's what allows you to know what's good and avoid doing evil. After all, if you're innocent, you will unwittingly do evil which is always bad. Even if you don't mean it, even if nobody would dream of blaming or punishing the one who committed it, it's not fun to have to deal with.

quote:

---

If they did, the blame would not be on God for foreknowing creating them as stubborn.

---

Huh? That is precisely where the blame would lie: If you know what is going to happen, can do something about it, but still allow it to happen, then by definition you are to blame.That's the point: If god can stop evil but is unwilling, then god is malevolent.That's fine by me. Are you willing to say the same?

quote:

---

(Of course this leads to the question of why God then allowed freewill in the first place if there were to be conditions attached to it!)

---

No, not really. The question is why a god who knew that his creation would fail him would be in such a snit when it did what he knew it was going to do.Hmmm...god is malevolent, perhaps? Are you willing to say that?

---

Rrhain

---

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Phat responds to me:

quote:

---

We are not now talking about Adam and Eves dilemma.

---

Yes, we are. The response to Adam and Eve is what supposedly cursed the entire human race and the very earth itself. The reason we are in the state we are is because of god's action.Ergo, it'd be nice to know if he were justified in his temper tantrum.

quote:

---

Are you saying that you have the right and power to not only micromanage your life but to in fact micromanage your death?

---

"Micromanage"? I don't see anybody else living my life but me.

quote:

---

If so, where does God fit in?

---

The same place everybody else does: As an externality. My life is mine, isn't it? Or am I just a puppet?Is there anything that happens on its own?

quote:

---

Kinda strips Him of His omnipotent quality.

---

Only if we claim that god can't or doesn't make me do anything. But according to Exodus, he can and does. He hardened the heart of Pharaoh...and then punished him for having a hard heart (there's that setting people up thing again.)

quote:

---

They maintain that God had to give me the ability to acknowledge Him I suppose that spiritually I could micromanage my decision to surrender to Him, as I would undoubtedly surrender upon physical death, anyway.

---

Oh, you do so love Pascal's Wager, don't you?

---

Rrhain

---

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

quote:

---

The reason we are in the state we are is because of god's action.

---

Yet more misconstrued thinking, "Damned that government! it was their fault that I was fined while speeding! - yes... I saw the sign and I was warned, but that's the besides the fact! they should never of created roads and cars to begin with. - See how childish this concept seems.

quote:

---

Ergo, it'd be nice to know if he were justified in his temper tantrum.

---

Show me once where God scrambled, argued or panicked? Such descriptors are nothing but vanity propped-up to a platform unsound beliefs.The last thing an almighty being would do is resort to imperfect human emotions. I find it amusing when people categorize God at or bellow human standards. While it is quite common to resolve God's personality on a human level, the fact that God and humans are worlds apart remains outstanding. If and when the day arrives where humans are abel to conceive or even resolve such things as the universe itself, then perhaps would be in a position to contemplate God's markup. Otherwise, no one is equipped to measure or evaluate God in the least of the terms.The scriptures describe God as a force or authority structured on laws and balance. Though we have numerous cases where God has diverted his attention to correct mankind's direction, we have evidence that God does not hang around "struggling" to control anything. Such concepts are limited human reasoning, and not that of an almighty God or any prestigious person for that matter. Since God's name alone means to cause to happen, we have assurance that his power is limitless.

quote:

---

He hardened the heart of Pharaoh.

---

You could choose that belief, or... we could stick the outline that God is all knowing and that He knew precisely what would happen when he placed Pharaoh under specific circumstances. It would seem as though God made it a point to respect the framework he instilled for humanity. Besides, what type of Almighty being, would need to resort to such a pathetic control tactics(more human reasoning). Any entity with the capacity and insight to create something as complex as the universe would likewise have the capacity and insight to determine human reactions to specific conditions. To this effect, we return back law and order. How dare they, build roads and cars that can exceed the speed limits!.Seeing Pharaoh's heart, God would of known the outcome under the circumstances of the plagues. he knew that it would result in defiance even at the face of death.

quote:

---

Only if we claim that god can't or doesn't make me do anything. But according to Exodus, he can and does. (there's that setting people up thing again.)

---

God interferes, when, and where, necessary. Evil people(opposing good) will crying unfairness, claiming that Adam and Eve were treated unfairly and that God set them up. However, such beliefs paint a picture of an Evil God who manipulated and lied to humans for none other than entertainment. Thankfully, we have scriptural evidence to decimates such ruses.God likes good things!, We can be assured of this because as a perfect and complete being, He created life for none other than to enjoy the fruits of his passion. Anyone practicing bad under his rule will have no place in his arrangement. Furthermore, God, is attracted and moves to protect those with good hearts. Though He is a father to those who love him, we should also be mindful that God is no pushover. Overstepping on God's boundaries can only result in "authoritative consequences". It is completely unreasonable to expect to bring evil into God's world and get away with it. The rules were(are) simple, uphold God's sovereignty and experience an eternity of life and unlimited pleasure. Betray God's sovereignty, and you will no longer continue to participate in His arrangement.Having said this, it remains noteworthy that in this day people are fully entitled to live a life in opposition to God and run their course in life. However, such things were not intended to go on forever, since the world as we know it is obviously coming to a close.Edited by pbee, : typoEdited by pbee, : No reason given.

I hate analogies as they often obscure more then they clarify or illustrate. In this case above, the parameters do not even come close to match the degree of severity of the matter that it is attempting to illustrate and therefor obscures or misleads the point. Somehow "fined while speeding" does not quite equate to the cursing of the earth and condemning billions of humans and creatures to death, struggle and eternal suffering.Here, let me try with a different analogy, but I know I will also fail.

quote:

---

You own a day care center. And one day you set a open container of fuel in the middle of the room and you hand out lighters to each child. You get their attention and explain that playing with the lighters is OK and permissible just don't play next to this container of fuel. You then leave and go on vacation.

​

Later one of you own employees comes in and tells the children to disregard the warning and in fact the open container would make a nice campfire to roast marsh mellows on. Sure enough within time one of the little urchins ignites the fuel and it kills or burns not only all the children but extends into the town and kills or burns all the extended family members of the children.

​

When you are finally brought to justice the judges asks why did you would allow such a dangerous condition to exist and why did you hire such a lousy employee. You explain hey "If I didn't expose them and their families to danger they wouldn't have had choice".

---

Does that work better? Edited by iceage, : No reason given.Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

I tried the exact same analogy with pbee in another thread (only I used a bear trap). Watch him explain that it's still the childrens' fault if they get hurt.

---

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

Not gonna work. They were not children, the Garden was vast, they had an endless things to entertain themselves with.Nice try though.Sorry if my response is short, but I am waiting for my account to get canned from this forum. It's to limited for any serious discussions so I'm going to prop up my own forum with a little more ingenuity as a result.Adios people *waving Edited by pbee, : No reason given.

If one compares fully formed and intelligent humans to the being who created the universe we are much much less than children. So yes it does work.In fact it is hard to capture the essence of the story where the consequence of a single decision of a single individual is visited on down through billions of people and all of creation. If you get suspended it will be for something like 4 hours. i have been suspended (several times) for longer for less. Don't overreact, take it in stride, and if you do get suspended use it as a good excuse to go for a walk Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

pbee responds to me:[bad analogy deleted for space]Here, let me try it another way.You have a choice, pbee: Beetaratagang or clerendipity. One will save your soul and land you eternal paradise. The other will damn you to eternal torment. Which is it going to be? C'mon, you're an intelligent person. Surely you are in charge of your thoughts and actions. Which is it? Why do you hesitate? You should know by now which way is which!Beetaratagang or clerendipity?

quote:

---

Show me once where God scrambled, argued or panicked?

---

Genesis 3. Why does god kick Adam and Eve out of Eden? He directly states the reason for his panic: Lest Adam and Eve eat of the Tree of Life and live forever.Genesis 2. Why does god make Adam and then only later decide that it is "not good"? And when he figures it out that isn't good, why does he gad about creating animals to be the helpmeet for Adam? He not only notices that he screwed up, he screws up his fix.

quote:

---

The last thing an almighty being would do is resort to imperfect human emotions.

---

And yet, that's precisely what god does over and over and over again. Have you not read Exodus? Moses is constantly pleading with god to calm down. Have you forgotten the story of Sodom? Or Noah? God is mightily incensed and flies off the handle. Abraham has to remind him that he's about to commit mass genocide of innocents. After god wipes out every living thing on earth, he immediately apologizes to Noah and vows to never, ever do it again.

quote:

---

quote:

---

He hardened the heart of Pharaoh.

---

​

You could choose that belief, or... we could stick the outline that God is all knowing and that He knew precisely what would happen when he placed Pharaoh under specific circumstances.

---

Except that isn't what the text says. Instead, god directly states that he will consciously, deliberately, and with malice aforethought harden the heart of Pharaoh.Exodus 4:21: And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.Exodus 7:3: And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.Exodus 7:13: And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.Exodus 9:12: And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.Exodus 10:1: And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:Exodus 10:20: But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.Exodus 10:27: But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.Exodus 11:10: And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and he LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.Exodus 14:4: And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. And they did so.Exodus 14:8: And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand.Exodus 14:17: And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.Now, we'll skip over the sloppy narrative that says the Egyptians chased after the Hebrews on all of Pharaoh's horses since there weren't any for back in Exodus 9 they had all been killed. Let's just stick to the direct text:Eleven times the text directly quotes god as saying that he will harden Pharaoh's heart or describes god actually doing so. This is not a question of "belief." This is not a question of god simply being able to read Pharaoh.

quote:

---

God interferes, when, and where, necessary.

---

But here's the thing: If he can interfere to stop evil but does not do so, then he is necessarily evil.I'm OK with saying that. Are you?Is god capable?Is god willing?If the former is yes but the latter is no, then god is malevolent.

quote:

---

Evil people(opposing good) will crying unfairness, claiming that Adam and Eve were treated unfairly and that God set them up. However, such beliefs paint a picture of an Evil God who manipulated and lied to humans for none other than entertainment.

---

Says who? You? Why should we believe you? You're simply arguing a variation of Pascal's Wager. You are assuming you comprehend the motives of god and assuming that the Bible is an accurate presentation of what happened all those years ago. It's just as possible that the Bible is a test: Are you going to fall for the idea of, "It's the holy word of god!" even though it clearly shows god to be an evil being? Are you going to forego that ability to distinguish good and evil that you were given?

quote:

---

However, such things were not intended to go on forever, since the world as we know it is obviously coming to a close.

---

BZZZZT!Pascal's Wager. I'm so sorry, pbee. Johnny, tell him what parting gifts he has!Well, Bob, pbee has won himself a lifetime of anguish in someone else's hell! Yes, that's right. After spending all of his life fighting against Satan and worshipping the Christian god, pbee gets a reward of going straight to Hades for his hubris. He'll be sentenced to solve a series of puzzles for which the instructions can be read in many ways. Every attempt to glean more information will be met with "Since it would just be a waste of my time to tell you, I won't." Of course, every proposed solution will conflict with something in the contradictory instructions. This being for his continued insistence that those around him are unworthy of explanations.But, he won't get hungry because he'll have an afterlife-time supply of Rice-a-Roni®, the San Francisco Treat.You didn't really think that the god that truly exists was the Christian one, did you?

---

Rrhain

---

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.