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Author Topic:   Human Lies or Gods Word (Books making claims)
yzend1
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 34 (28510)
01-06-2003 2:52 PM


If I stumble across a book that claims to be the word of God, how do I know if it really is God's Word or Human Lies?
{Topic moved from "Great Debate" to "Faith and Beliefs" forum - Adminnemooseus}
[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 01-06-2003]

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by mark24, posted 01-06-2003 7:45 PM yzend1 has not replied
 Message 4 by Peter, posted 01-08-2003 7:00 AM yzend1 has replied
 Message 31 by riVeRraT, posted 02-08-2007 1:49 PM yzend1 has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 2 of 34 (28540)
01-06-2003 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by yzend1
01-06-2003 2:52 PM


Perhaps God handed you the book.....?
Other than that, you can't verify the claim.
Mark

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Karl
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 34 (28564)
01-07-2003 2:45 AM


What book do you have in mind?

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Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 4 of 34 (28661)
01-08-2003 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by yzend1
01-06-2003 2:52 PM


quote:
Originally posted by yzend1:
If I stumble across a book that claims to be the word of God, how do I know if it really is God's Word or Human Lies?
{Topic moved from "Great Debate" to "Faith and Beliefs" forum - Adminnemooseus}
[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 01-06-2003]

You cannot know the difference, unless one makes
some assumptions about what form a book written
by God would take as opposed to one written by man.
One might be that since God is all-knowing (an assumption)
that all details within a book written by him would be
accurate, and not found to be false by later investigations
of man.
On the other hand one would expect a book written by man to
contain interpretations consistent with beliefs & knowledge
contempory with the time of writing.
Similarly one would expect to find prejudices of man reflected
in the treatment of events and peoples in a book written
by man. Such prejudices should not be found in a book
written by God since God would put forward only the truth (assumption).
However, it largely depends on which God is supposed to have
written the work which assumptions will hold to help
make that decision. A work written by Ares (or any other
Greek God) may well be riddled with the same sorts of
prejudices and mis-representations as a book written
by man since the Greek gods were notoriously fickle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by yzend1, posted 01-06-2003 2:52 PM yzend1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by yzend1, posted 01-08-2003 1:59 PM Peter has replied

  
yzend1
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 34 (28689)
01-08-2003 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Karl
01-07-2003 2:45 AM


Quote : Which book had you in mind.
It was really a general question about any book claiming to be the word of God, eg Bible, Koran, The Jewish Bible, The Morman Bible, etc etc. There must be quite a few alternatives to choose from.

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Replies to this message:
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NeoPagan
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 34 (28690)
01-08-2003 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by yzend1
01-08-2003 1:23 PM


I say you can tell by the "content" of ALL books that they are not God's word. God would have to be a lunatic to take credit for the things attributed to him in all of these books.

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yzend1
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 34 (28691)
01-08-2003 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Peter
01-08-2003 7:00 AM


So, if the book foretold some 'supernatural' event (in written words) that could at a later date be verified, since humans should not naturally be able to possess this ability, one could then assume the book contains the word of God.
(It is assumed that anything verified 'in the past' could be 'doctored' as a trick to proving the book contains the word of God unless it could be shown that that which was written preceeded that what happened.)
So, does anyone know of a book that fortells a future event that has yet to happen (hopfully in the not too distant future), and that also claims to be the word of God (plus page number if it's an exceedingly long book)?
Or does anybody know of a book that fortold a future event which definetly proved correct and also claims to be the word of God (plus page number if it's an exceedingly long book)?
Also, what kind of an future event should be classed as being fortold? Should location and time and description of event all be stated rather than a more general fortelling?
(Note, one problem with fortelling something. It doesn't stop someone reading the prediction and then fullfilling the 'destiny' of the prediction - Example, someone might fortell in writing that I will go and live in Washington DC. So I might read the prediction and go and live there just to fullfill the prediction. This is no good. As I think about it, it seems to me that the only type of prediction that will count is the prediction of a specific natural disaster that's against the stastical norm.
So, until it has been proven that God fortells in a book should we accept the position of being agnostic, since to believe in God or to believe in atheism seems pointless unless you know for sure?
yzend1

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Replies to this message:
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yzend1
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 34 (28692)
01-08-2003 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by yzend1
01-08-2003 1:59 PM


Lets try to make this more specific:-
Apart from foretelling specific natural disasters what else would give it away that a book contained the word of God as opposed to human lies claiming to be the word of God.
LIST OF WHAT WOULD GIVE IT AWAY
1. Fortelling specific natural disasters
Why would God tell us about a specific natural disaster and do nothing about it? It doesn't make alot of sense to me.
2. Help, I've run out of ideas.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Primordial Egg, posted 01-08-2003 2:54 PM yzend1 has replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 34 (28693)
01-08-2003 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by yzend1
01-08-2003 2:19 PM


quote:
Originally posted by yzend1:
Lets try to make this more specific:-
Apart from foretelling specific natural disasters what else would give it away that a book contained the word of God as opposed to human lies claiming to be the word of God.
LIST OF WHAT WOULD GIVE IT AWAY
1. Fortelling specific natural disasters
Why would God tell us about a specific natural disaster and do nothing about it? It doesn't make alot of sense to me.
2. Help, I've run out of ideas.

Would foretelling specific natural disasters give it away? After all, the technology of a sufficiently advanced extra-terrestrial intelligence would be indistinguishable to magic to us earthlings, so we'd have to discount this possibility first. (There is a corollary to this advanced by Michael Shermer, in that any sufficiently advanced intelligence (SAI) would be indistinguishable from God, which, if it holds (I think it does), implies that there is no way of telling whether any book is from God or from a potentially mischievious SAI).
And in any event, I don't think that being able to predict, say, a hurricane is any indication of Godhood, else we'd all be meteorologists
If we leave aside the SAI / God dilemma and aim for a book that could not possibly be written by a human being (including a future time traveller - but this might fall under SAI), then at the very least I would expect it to provide, in very clear terms, new technologies and ways of understanding the universe, which both agrees with and extends significantly the total sum of our existing knowledge.
But thats just a first stab - it may flex upon cross-examination.
PE
eduted to add:
PS At a very minimum, I would expect the book to be coherent and internally consistent.
[This message has been edited by Primordial Egg, 01-08-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by yzend1, posted 01-08-2003 2:19 PM yzend1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by yzend1, posted 01-08-2003 3:15 PM Primordial Egg has replied
 Message 13 by Peter, posted 01-13-2003 2:06 AM Primordial Egg has replied

  
yzend1
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 34 (28694)
01-08-2003 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Primordial Egg
01-08-2003 2:54 PM


If someone wrote in 1000AD that on Friday 13th January 2004AD a comet was going to crash into Mars and blow it to bits, and it proved true, then, if this person also claimed to communicate directly with God, well, he'd probably have been right and this could be regarded as proof of GOD.
THE LIST GROWS
2. Godly insight into advanced technological devices.
3. Godly insight into understanding of how the universe works.
Come on ladies and gentlemen, get your thinking caps on.
yzend1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Primordial Egg, posted 01-08-2003 2:54 PM Primordial Egg has replied

Replies to this message:
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Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 34 (28696)
01-08-2003 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by yzend1
01-08-2003 3:15 PM


quote:
Originally posted by yzend1:
If someone wrote in 1000AD that on Friday 13th January 2004AD a comet was going to crash into Mars and blow it to bits, and it proved true, then, if this person also claimed to communicate directly with God, well, he'd probably have been right and this could be regarded as proof of GOD.
Well no - you've missed my point completely. It could well be either:
1) a sufficiently advanced extra-terrestrial, lying about their relationship with God
2) a lucky guess
3) a future time traveller gone back to 1000.
You probably need to read my post again - how do you distinguish SAI from God?
PE

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Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 12 of 34 (28966)
01-13-2003 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by yzend1
01-08-2003 1:59 PM


No. Prediction isn't sufficient ... even an incredibly
unambiguous, specifically detailed prediction (and I've
never seen one of those).
Primordial Egg pointed out potential alternate explanations
for most 'God definitely did that.' interpretations.
It would be easier to focuss on things that would indicate
the hand of man ... since we are much better acquainted (sp?)
with man and his workings.
The biggest indicators to this would be::
i) Bias toward one culture over another
ii)Explanations of events consistent with knowledge contempory with
the date of writing.

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Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 13 of 34 (28967)
01-13-2003 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Primordial Egg
01-08-2003 2:54 PM


Coherence and internal consistency are also present
in good fiction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Primordial Egg, posted 01-08-2003 2:54 PM Primordial Egg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Primordial Egg, posted 01-13-2003 6:40 AM Peter has replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 34 (28979)
01-13-2003 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Peter
01-13-2003 2:06 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Peter:
Coherence and internal consistency are also present
in good fiction.

Agreed. Coherence and internal consistency would both be necessary for any book claiming to be from the G (as a minimum), but certainly not sufficient.
And thats before having to develop some way (which I can't think of) of distinguishing God from a sufficiently advanced intelligence.
PE

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 Message 13 by Peter, posted 01-13-2003 2:06 AM Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by yzend1, posted 01-13-2003 2:15 PM Primordial Egg has replied
 Message 23 by Peter, posted 01-15-2003 2:03 AM Primordial Egg has not replied

  
yzend1
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 34 (28996)
01-13-2003 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Primordial Egg
01-13-2003 6:40 AM


Do you think my Roman Catholic Bible was written by/via an advanced alien or future-time travelling Human or is it Human Lies or is it the Word of God?
The mind Boggles
Will it be St peter at the marble gates or some alien or advanced human when I die?
The Mind Boggles
I suppose the question might be what good is faith in God which might only delay us on our road of using science to achieve immortality? Hence, It possible ain't some future human but a naughty rascal of an alien getting further and further ahead of us?
How do we inform the world to wake up?.......Before it's too late to catch up?
yzend1

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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