to Christians in this forum...

These statements don't seem to jibe with each other.It is, of course, understandable that you may not know enough about a number of complex subjects to actually add 2 cents worth. However, if you actually want to learn something then asking questions is a great way to start.However little you happen to know I think you will receive an almost universally polite and helpful response if you simply ask honest questions.Where you should start depends on your particular beliefs. If you have any misapprehension that biology, physics and geology has anything to say against your basic faith in God and Christ then there are places to discuss that. It is, in my opinion, simply not the case.If you think that a literal reading of the Bible suggests an earth of only 1,000's of years old then there is a date and dating forum for that. You will note that we get very nearly zero real creationist participation there. There are bursts of postings that are copies of AIG, ICR and worse sites. When the deep flaws in those are pointed out (again) the poster goes away. Why is it that there is simply no scientific defence for a young earth?If you're simply not comfortable with the astonishing array of life arising through evolutionary processes then there are topics for that too. However, this one is much tougher than simple things like the age of the earth or no flood (both very simple issues in comparison). While the basic ideas of evolutionary theory are very simple the subtle details are not. I can understand that one might need a lot of time and knowledge before they grasp what is going on.This site is a debate forum over the direct confrontation between science and those who think that there is such a thing as "scientific" creationism. It is fun for some of the unbelievers to argue away in the faith and belief forum but I don't know why a believer would do that. While we have changed the minds of a few literalists on some of the science I haven't seen anything like that kind of change going the other way. You can't "argue" your way to faith. You can do so to knowledge of the natural world.

Agreed with Ned completely.These forums are for debates about specific details regarding evolution and other topics surrounding that. No one person can write an entire college course (or high school course) worth of information on this forum. If anyone want to find out more about evolution or want to see more evidence, take a class about it or read some books.In another forum, I was asked why I thought morality could exist without the presence or existence of a God. I was like WTF! I can't sipmly write everything I learned in my philosophy of ethics class in on that forum. If she really want to learn why people say that morality can exist without God, she should have read some books about it or take a class about it. I even gave her the names of the moral theories out there for her to start looking.

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The Laminator

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Well, I can't speak for anyone but me, but I answer condecension with condescension - and respect with respect.If you want to avoid condesending insults from evolutionists, make sure that your own posts don't contain things like "Evolution is an ol' heap of shite, but maybe I'll agree to it if you can give me 100 pages of proof."I'm not saying that you do that (though your posts feel a little borderline condecending, like your exchange with Schraf) just that that doesn't tend to make friends here.If you've got honest questions about the evolutionary model, and aren't just taking potshots, then I'm sure than I and others will jump at the chance to answer your questions to the best of our abilities.

Maybe you don't notice because you're not one, but atheists are the subject of a lot of comments that are considerably worse than "cheap shots." For instance a number of us have been accused of being potential murdering child molesters and basically responsible for all atrocities in the 20th century, simply because we choose not to believe in God.Yeah, we should probably try to take the moral high ground, but we're only human. The cheap shots aren't just coming from the atheists, ok?

You are right crashfrog,many people also think atheists are mostly,
homosexuals and lesbians,forgetting that some homosexual claim to-
be christians.
some claim that atheists are just lustful and after the desires of,
the flesh,but thats just lumping people together and calling them
names when they don't even know each person as an individual.

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Desdamona

Thanks for all this, Des, I'm glad you can see that people who might disagree with you on some issues can be Ok people too. The nature of a persons character doesn't have much to do with either their understanding of science or their belief in any particular faith.

1.61803In response to your doomsday comments, this is the first time in recorded history that it is possible for ALL the Biblical prophecies of the 'end times' to be fulfilled. Global government, global cashless monetary system, united one world religion, Israel becoming a nation again and the infamous mark of the beast to name the most obvious.Global government/monetary system/religion IS on the horizon! However before the super elites can bring this to fruition, America must be brought into submission. What do you think this 'war on terra' is really about? Do you really think it is about 'defending the homeland' and rooting out the 'evildoers' from their caves and oil reserves? Do you really believe that the Bushies are trying to make the world a safer place, especially for Americans? Hardly! They are justifying your destruction and submission to a global governing body, all according to plan. But wait, if this were true then that would mean there would have to be some sort of conspiracy, and any rational person knows that there is no such thing as conspiracies. There is absolutely no historical precedent for rulers conspiring against their own citizens, right? OK, well maybe there is a historical precedent...but...it could never happen in America. Our government loves us!Do you have any idea how much your government has already sold out your national soveriegnty to the UN? Do you have any idea how the Bushies have completely shredded the constitution and destroyed your civil liberties via the Patriot Act? The very freedoms that all those American patriots spilled their blood to defend! Sadly it seems that their blood was spilled in vain because most Americans can't even be bothered to educate themselves as to what their government is REALLY doing under the radar, content to sit back and eat up all the propaganda that the corporate media can shovel at them. Thinking that their armchair patriotism and waving their little flags made in China is going to somehow sustain all those democratic freedoms that they take for granted.Why do you think the Bushies have completely wiped out Social Security and run up a defecit into Trillions of dollars? Why do you think they have run roughshod over the constituion considering themselves to be above all accountability? Because they know America is a sinking ship! Don't believe me, just wait and see. I'm sure the Romans didn't believe their glorious empire would ever come to an end either.Again I will post this link for the third time. Please read it if you think 'it can never happen here'. Granted this was written in the 70's, yet still highly relevant to what is going on today:Database Error

I just want to add to my above post that this is not said out of contempt or spite toward you 1.61803, my apologies if it comes across this way. More from my frustration at the blind faith people generally put in their government, and especially the Bush administration. I tend to get easily fired up when thinking about that guy. Whooohah.[This message has been edited by pinky, 04-20-2004]

you are so welcome!
I am understanding that while I'm a christian,it is very unfair,
to accuse all people who believe simular of everything there is.
People cannot be judged like that.
There are all kinds of christians and all kinds of evolutionists.
we cannot say that all people are the same just because they have,
a simular belief or view.
There are just too many lables,and not enough information.
We need to stop taking away from the individual person,and stop,
adding to people what is not there.
Everyone is an individual with certain likes and dislikes.
to say that all christians are the same is a very bold state-
ment,just like saying all others of a simular view are all the
same.
People are all special.We may not all agree on the same subjects,
but I believe all life is precious,and worthy of respect.

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Desdamona

Pinky I hope you really dont think that the American patriots blood was spilled in vain. Not to get to far of topic here but I feel with Saddam out of power I am safer and Im sure a lot of other people do to, and that couldnt have happend without Americans. I am thankful for everyone of the Americans who paid the greatest sacrifice for me and you. Easy on the Bush comments I think he is doing as good as a job as he can with the information he receives.

I may not be the most tactful person at the best of times but I would never make such broadsweeping accusations against any group. I do not sit in judgment of you because you do not believe in G-d, nor do I somehow think that I am a better person because I do. I am a sinner like every other person to have been born and I have no idea why G-d chose to reveal Himself to me, it is not because I have done ANYTHING to deserve such a blessing. Quite the contrary, if there is anyone who was NOT deserving of this blessing, it is me. There is absolutely nothing in me that makes me any better than anyone else.And yes I have noticed that the cheap shots are not only coming from one side.

Hello Jackal25 You are right and I shouldn't suggest that anyones death is in vain, especially those that gave their lives for our freedom. But what does it mean if these brave men died for the most noble of causes, if the following generations aren't willing to do something to assure that those freedoms remain? How many Americans really understand why the constitution is so important to begin with and where is the outcry over that fact that it has been completely gutted by the Patriot Act?I will not try to make a case that Saddam was some great guy, obviously he was not. However I do not agree that Bush and co. have made the world a safer place by ousting him in the manner that they did. They could have taken him out by assassination instead of launching 'shock and awe' and destroying much of Iraqi infrastructure as well as causing many casualties of both Iraqi civilians and American troops. Then there is the depleted uranium that is going to cause untold health problems for the Iraqis and American troops for years to come.You seem like a nice person Jackal, and I am sorry that you think Bush is doing a good job . But I see you are from Texas so I understand why you might think this way. (I mean that in jest).I wouldn't worry too much about getting off topic either, this thread had been all over the place. I'm not really too sure what the topic is anymore.

The topic started as a question to why christians try to use the scientific method to prove God. Then some people responded with the classic "why not?" Overall, it had been staying in the general field of God versus science. Then, on page 12 you guys somehow made a jump to patriotism and the war in Iraq.Please stay on subject.[This message has been edited by Lam, 04-20-2004]

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The Laminator

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All of our science will be useless to keep us in the days ahead, in fact much of the science that you love so much is going to be used to decieve us and bring us into submission to the emerging global government.

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That is why it is more important than ever for people to understand science and technology.It is indeed a bad situation when our lives are so influenced and dependent upon science and technology, but so few of us non-scientists have learned even the bare basics of how science is done or technology works.The more people understand science, which stresses a healthy skepticism and a need for good quality empirical evidence before belief, the less vulnerable they will be to being taken advantage of or fooled by people who do have that knowledge and would use it to gain power and influence.

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I guess I was naive enough to think that I could show the reality of this. I still think I could if I were given half a chance to make my case, but what is the point if nobody wants to hear it? In addition, this may not be the forum to discuss it anyhow.

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I am sure most of us would enjoy debating this subject. However, I'm sure you know that many of us have very stringent standards for what we will consider evidence.

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I don't think I was trying to create any illusion that I am an expert in matters of science, and I will fully admit that I am not qualified to debate on these grounds. I even made a point of saying this in a previous post, and this is the reason why I have posted under Faith and Belief and avoided all the other topic headings.

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That's cool, although I will also say that any time someone makes factual claims about something scientific, as you have, I'm going to address it and challenge things I know to be false or inaccurate, regardless of what forum it's in.

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If you have a point you wish to make then why do you have to do so with snide little remarks?

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I don't have to at all, of course, but I think I only made a single snotty remark to you, ("Is your life really boring?"). You are completely correct that such remarks do not advance debate, nor do they promote an atmosphere of security for expressing ideas. I do apologize for that, although in my own defense I do not think I have indulged in much of that kind of thing at all with you.

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I fully confess that my last post to you was overly defensive and insulting, for this I sincerely apologize. I am without excuse.

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Hey, forget about it, and thanks.As a stay at home mom, you work twice the hours as the rest of us, at least, and you don't get any sick days! You are granted a bit of slack to be cranky.Finally, I would hope that you venture over to the Evolution and Is it Science fora and at least lurk there. The discussions are interesting and since there are actually a number of real scientists here, the quality of the information is really good and they are more than willing to explain things to rank beginners (as I am in Physics, for instance) as well as more experienced people.