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Author | Topic: Spiritual Warfare Fight Thread... | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: Think about it, though. The Jewish religion was formed in a culture through a long amount of time. The Christian religion, in contrast, was formed virtually instantly after the death(burial and resurrection) of its leader. Had the leader been just another "failed Messiah" the movement logically should have died off. How many time has it been pointed out to you Phat that if age is proof of the right of a religion then you'd be a Jew or a member of one of the even older religions? Do you think you can stop using this now or is it going to turn up again in a few months? Thats my basic argument.Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Thats my basic argument. That's a totally different argument. The first was 'it's old so it's true' This new one is just as daft - 'It was created quickly so it's true.' I offer you Mormonism or Scientology if you just need fast. These are all just poor rationalisations of your favourite belief - a belief you wouldn't even know existed if you'd been born in a village in the Atlas mountains instead of Denver, USA (or wherever). A pure fluke of birth.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Maybe you have a point. Is it really that hard for people to accept Jesus, though?
Even if we only accepted the dogmatic concept of a man which has not been proven to exist. A man who is the character representation of God. Thus...it boils down to accepting God or nah. Critics may argue as to what good it will do. And to be fair, I should also consider accepting that He does not exist, in order that we (you and I) have common ground. I resolve in 2015 to try and understand atheism better. In addition, I resolve to be more patient in our forum discussions---even if what is said goes aginst my beliefs.Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Is it really that hard for people to accept Jesus, though? Apparently it's not hard at all if you indoctrinate children early enough, then keep them out of education for as long as possible. But you're making the usual mistake of assuming that your belief is self evidently true when some of us think it utterly daft. I can't think of a single reason why I would want to "accept Jesus" the entire concept is bogus. You need to get your head round that first.
Even if we only accepted the dogmatic concept of a man which has not been proven to exist. You want me to accept Jesus even though he never existed? That's bizarre even for you.
And to be fair, I should also consider accepting that He does not exist, in order that we (you and I) have common ground. It would be a start
I resolve in 2015 to try and understand atheism better. In addition, I resolve to be more patient in our forum discussions---even if what is said goes aginst my beliefs. Fair enough, but you could start by just thinking a bit about how what you type could be/has already been criticised before you post it. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Think about it, though. The Jewish religion was formed in a culture through a long amount of time. The Christian religion, in contrast, was formed virtually instantly after the death(burial and resurrection) of its leader. Had the leader been just another "failed Messiah" the movement logically should have died off. Thats my basic argument. The problem there Phat is what you assert is just not true. Christianity was just another Jewish sect for hundreds of years and it developed over the centuries just like any religion does. It pretty much did die out and became pretty insignificant until it was adopted as a State Religion and imposed by force and coercion. The way it survived the "Failed Messiah" challenge was to change the meaning on messiah beyond all recognition. But even under the NewSpeak Christian definition of messiah Jesus is still a failed messiah.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
I would argue that were the church never genuine it never would have held together.
What you think doesn't matter.Read this Not the Impossible Faith A scholarly take down of all those types of arguments. Oh that's right you won't consider anything that threatens your worldview.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
And that argument has been disproven and shown to be bullshit.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I told everyone that one of my New Years Resolutions was to understand world views that disagreed with my own. So far, you three have started to challenge me in several areas.
jar writes: So you are telling me that Christianity was statistically insignificant until Constantine had his vision? Duly noted.
Christianity was just another Jewish sect for hundreds of years and it developed over the centuries just like any religion does. It pretty much did die out and became pretty insignificant until it was adopted as a State Religion and imposed by force and coercion. The way it survived the "Failed Messiah" challenge was to change the meaning on messiah beyond all recognition. But even under the NewSpeak Christian definition of messiah Jesus is still a failed messiah. So to Jews, Jesus has no meaning? Tangle states that Jesus has no meaning to him,also. And by the way, Theodoric...I have Richard Carriers book on my list. I will at least read it.Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes:
I'm saying more than that, I'm asking you why anyone should find any meaning in him if they're not already a believer. Any objective reading of the NT expose Jesus as just another mythological character speaking well-meaning platitudes whilst doing unbelievable magical things - of which there have been many. Tangle states that Jesus has no meaning to him,also. If you look deeper and examine the historicity of Jesus and compare what is known factually to what is belived, it all becomes a very obvious nonsense. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I think you're shooting yourself in the foot. "The church" clearly was invented by Paul. The only question is whether there was any basis to his belief or whether he made it all up out of whole cloth.
The church did not exist first and then simply make up a figurehead. The character of Jesus Christ with the help of the Holy Spirit(the character of GOD along with Jesus) inspired a man named Paul(no ghostwriter need apply)to build the church. Phat writes:
Indeed there are many "Yacht Clubs" that have more to do with social activity than yachting.
There hypothetically could be a bowling club that calls themselves a bowling club yet know nothing about bowling, I suppose.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: So you are telling me that Christianity was statistically insignificant until Constantine had his vision? Duly noted. It's more than that even. Christianity might well have died out throughout most of its history had it not been for the continued political, economic benefits and coercion inherent in a State religion. Christianity was spread by force; first by Rome, later by western European monarchs and then by colonialists to Asia and the new world.
Phat writes: So to Jews, Jesus has no meaning? Not quite. Jesus is recognized as a prophet by both Islam and Judaism. Remember that the test of a messiah is what the person did. What someone may do or will do is irrelevant as a test of whether someone is a messiah. While I might believe that Jesus will come again to judge the living and the dead and that Hid kingdom will have no end (sound familiar to you? ) the reality is that that is simply and acknowledgement that Jesus is so far a failed messiah. It was not so much the Gospel that spread Christianity but rather the consequences for not adopting Christianity. Look at US history and list the number of openly atheist, agnostic, Buddhist, Taoist, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu have been elected to office? Ask yourself if the coercion continues today?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Christianity might well have died out had Christ not been raised from the dead. Christianity might well have died out throughout most of its history had it not been for the continued political, economic benefits and coercion inherent in a State religion.Christianity was spread by force; first by Rome, later by western European monarchs and then by colonialists to Asia and the new world. The sad reality is that it was spread by the wrong type of force. In this I agree with you. We Christians today must take responsibility for the errors of our forefathers. I do not agree that the message is to simply try and do our best. While this is a noble and necessary daily charge, it is not the totality of the message. If Jesus were simply a myth told around future campfires, you would have a point. I challenge your assertion that Jesus was a failed Messiah.
jar writes: This is a valid point. Perhaps the Franchise needs to reevaluate the product that is being sold. It was not so much the Gospel that spread Christianity but rather the consequences for not adopting Christianity. Edited by Phat, : addedSaying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: I challenge your assertion that Jesus was a failed Messiah. Then provide evidence of what Jesus did that would make Jesus a messiah? Did he create and head a Jewish State? Did he conquer all and end war? Inquiring minds want to know.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Originally, Jesus own commission was only for the Jews. Did he create and head a Jewish State?Matt 15:21-24 writes: It is true that the author of John expanded this into "whosoever believes"...and it is also true that once Saul got knocked off his High Horse for killing Jews that he became zealous for a new direction and intention. Our question asks whether Paul was acting out of greedy or selfish motives---seeking to replace the original religion rather than completing it---or not. Some say that revisionism is completion of the original religion and that God foreknew His people would reject Him. Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." 23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." 24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." The evidence is inconclusive overall. A case can be made many ways. One could argue--as you do--that Jesus was a good teacher and nothing more. His life could be an example. His death irrelevant and unproven(resurrection included). One could also argue that 1 Cor 15:2 writes: In other words, Paul argues that belief in Jesus(as alive and empowering all through the Holy Spirit) is crucial. Others may argue--as you have done, jar---that it is what we do that counts and that our responsibility is to live as Jesus lived---even if He were but a story and/or mythos.
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. jar writes: Yes and No. Did he conquer all and end war? Wars still exist in the physical realm. It is the responsibility of humanity to try and do our best to eventually eliminate them. Some argue that we never will meet this goal and that holding on to Jesus as blessed hope and rescuer of humanity is not a foolish prospect as long as it doesn't cause us to let go of our responsibility. Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Answer the question. The questions were:
Then provide evidence of what Jesus did that would make Jesus a messiah? Did he create and head a Jewish State? Did he conquer all and end war? Your response of "Originally, Jesus own commission was only for the Jews. " has nothing to do with the question and unfortunately simply shows that you cannot or will not actually read the Bible. Not only did you try to palm the pea but you also quote mined one small part of a chapter but did not bother to finish reading. This is classic CCoI behavior, find only the pieces parts that support their position and ignore all the parts that refute it. Here is the rest of the section, the stuff you left out:
quote: So your very own source says that Jesus went beyond just the Jews. Nor does any of that have any relation to what the Great Commission charges us to do. So back to the questions. The Jewish Messiah would set up and rule a Jewish State, end war and rule the whole world. Did Jesus so that? Edited by jar, : appalin spallinAnyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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