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Author Topic:   Importance of Innerrancy to Moderate Christians
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 76 of 158 (336296)
07-29-2006 10:43 AM


INERRANCY
Inerrancy only applies to the original writings, not translations. And it means that God oversaw the whole. It is very odd to trust parts of it for some of its revelations but not others it seems to me. What basis do you have to trust any of it if it all isn't trustworthy? What basis do you have not to trust any of it? What makes the words of Jesus any more trustworthy than the words of Moses in Genesis? There are no external sources for either. If you trust modern science instead of Genesis, then what's to stop you from believing all the debunkery modern thought can bring against every other book in the Bible? The Jesus Seminar has eliminated much of what Jesus said for instance.
Certainly the Holy Spirit has the power and the reason to preserve this crucially important revelation for the sake of God's people. Jesus referred to Genesis as if it were truth same as He referred to other books of the Bible. He treated the Flood as reality, and the story of Jonah as reality. I would think that believing in Jesus would include believing in all his words in the NT, not just some you pick and choose as the Jesus Seminar does.
I'm astonished that anyone would ask how it can be known that the canon was originally determined on a spiritual basis and demand proof of this, without which the contention would be denied, but I suppose I'm naive and unbelievers can't be expected to understand anything about these things. A believer knows, that's all. The books that the believers recognized as authentic by the Holy Spirit are the ones that were unconditionally accepted. There is historical writing to that effect too, certainly, only I don't know how to track it down.

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 07-29-2006 11:24 AM Faith has replied
 Message 78 by Legend, posted 07-29-2006 11:30 AM Faith has replied
 Message 81 by Legend, posted 07-29-2006 11:52 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 77 of 158 (336299)
07-29-2006 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Faith
07-29-2006 10:43 AM


is INERRANCY even posible?
Faith writes:
Inerrancy only applies to the original writings, not translations.
But we have never found any originals, and so we really don't know what they contained.
Jesus referred to Genesis as if it were truth same as He referred to other books of the Bible.
How is Jesus references to Genesis any different to His references to a vineyard or construction methods?
I'm astonished that anyone would ask how it can be known that the canon was originally determined on a spiritual basis and demand proof of this, without which the contention would be denied, but I suppose I'm naive and unbelievers can't be expected to understand anything about these things. A believer knows, that's all. The books that the believers recognized as authentic by the Holy Spirit are the ones that were unconditionally accepted. There is historical writing to that effect too, certainly, only I don't know how to track it down.
Then why did the Holy Spirit give different directions to different Christians? How come the Holy Spirit told some groups that Enoch should be in and others that Enoch should be out, told some that Jubilees was in and others that Jubilees was out, that 3 Macabees should be in some Canon but not others, that 3 & 4 Ezra should be in some Canon but not others?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 07-29-2006 10:43 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 07-29-2006 11:48 AM jar has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 78 of 158 (336300)
07-29-2006 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Faith
07-29-2006 10:43 AM


Re: INERRANCY
faith writes:
The books that the believers recognized as authentic by the Holy Spirit are the ones that were unconditionally accepted.
so, in other words, you're saying you're putting your faith in those early believers' decision instead of God.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 07-29-2006 10:43 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 07-29-2006 11:48 AM Legend has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 79 of 158 (336302)
07-29-2006 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Legend
07-29-2006 11:30 AM


Re: INERRANCY
If you can't trust the Holy Spirit in God's believers you can't trust anything else you think is the Holy Spirit either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Legend, posted 07-29-2006 11:30 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Legend, posted 07-29-2006 12:06 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 80 of 158 (336303)
07-29-2006 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by jar
07-29-2006 11:24 AM


Re: is INERRANCY even posible?
Because we are also fallen there were some disputes. But the main collection of books was recognized easily by the first believers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 07-29-2006 11:24 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 07-29-2006 11:54 AM Faith has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 81 of 158 (336304)
07-29-2006 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Faith
07-29-2006 10:43 AM


Why absolutes ?
faith writes:
What basis do you have to trust any of it if it all isn't trustworthy? What basis do you have not to trust any of it?
The same basis you have for filtering out any information that's fed to you in your everyday life, i.e. you assess its plausibility based on experience and evidence.
example:
your arrive for work late one day and you claim it was because of terrible traffic on the road. Does your boss believe you ? probably yes.
your arrive for work late one day and you claim it was because you were abducted by aliens. Does your boss believe you ? highly unlikely.
Now, would you expect your boss to believe every single story you tell him ? I don't think so. Similarly, you wouldn't expect him to reject off-hand everything you tell him either. You'd expect your boss to assess and judge the credibility of what you tell him on an individual basis, wouldn't you?
why then do you expect everyone else to judge the bible on an absolute basis, as either all true or all false ?

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 07-29-2006 10:43 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 07-29-2006 12:00 PM Legend has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 82 of 158 (336305)
07-29-2006 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
07-29-2006 11:48 AM


Re: is INERRANCY even posible?
Because we are also fallen there were some disputes. But the main collection of books was recognized easily by the first believers.
Yet all of the Canon, which all came into existence at around the same time, are different.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 07-29-2006 11:48 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 07-29-2006 12:05 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 83 of 158 (336308)
07-29-2006 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Legend
07-29-2006 11:52 AM


Re: Why absolutes ?
Just because the Holy Spirit guided the believers in recognizing the canon doesn't mean they had taken leave of their rational minds. Of course there are also rational considerations involved. But ONLY believers have the Holy Spirit and that is the MAIN consideration in the recognition of the canon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Legend, posted 07-29-2006 11:52 AM Legend has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 84 of 158 (336309)
07-29-2006 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by jar
07-29-2006 11:54 AM


Re: is INERRANCY even posible?
Yet all of the Canon, which all came into existence at around the same time, are different.
As I understand it there were simply lists compiled over the centuries, and it didn't exactly "come into existence" at one particular time at all, not the Council of Nicea either, which has been alleged.
The core list never changed. I appreciated truthlover's link to the Muratorian List. Very basic list of the canononical books from 170 AD. The orthodox lists always contained those books. Very few were in dispute.
Edited by AdminJar, : fix opening quote

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 07-29-2006 11:54 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by jar, posted 07-29-2006 12:16 PM Faith has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 85 of 158 (336310)
07-29-2006 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Faith
07-29-2006 11:48 AM


Re: INERRANCY
faith writes:
If you can't trust the Holy Spirit in God's believers you can't trust anything else you think is the Holy Spirit either.
?? just because you're unable to discern other people's motivation doesn't mean that you can't decide for your self what's good or bad, right or wrong.
you have no idea why the Ecumenical Councils decided what they decided. They might have been guided by the Holy Spirit, they might have been guided by the Devil himself, although you'd like to think the former.
If you unquestionably believe their decision to be the right one then you're putting your faith in those men and your whole life therafter will be based on what those men decided is good for you, not what God points out to you through his direct and unaltered creation.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 07-29-2006 11:48 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Faith, posted 07-29-2006 12:08 PM Legend has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 86 of 158 (336311)
07-29-2006 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Legend
07-29-2006 12:06 PM


Re: INERRANCY
I know because I too have the Holy Spirit and do not put my trust in men or I'd trust all the modern scholars who are constantly disrupting the traditional Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Legend, posted 07-29-2006 12:06 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Legend, posted 07-29-2006 12:32 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 87 of 158 (336314)
07-29-2006 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Faith
07-29-2006 12:05 PM


Re: is INERRANCY even posible?
I believe that you said the Canon were created under the influence of the Holy Spirit. Now you seem to be saying that the Canon was not that, but rather the Canon came about by committee.
Acually if you consider all the Canon, the only place where there is absolute agreement between all of them seems to be the First Five books of the Bible.
The facts are that we do not have any originals and so we cannot be sure what the original books contained. We have copies, and copies from different sources and so can make an educated guess what the originals were like. The same concerns relate to Canon. Different groups made different decisions when deciding what was or was not to be included.
There is no Universal Bible. There is no Universal Canon.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 07-29-2006 12:05 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 07-29-2006 12:26 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 88 of 158 (336316)
07-29-2006 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by jar
07-29-2006 12:16 PM


Re: is INERRANCY even posible?
I referred only to the MAIN BOOKS of the canon even in my very first post on the subject, jar. I know there were some disputed books but the core of the canon was established from an early time and was never changed. That Muratorian List contains the essentials right there.
When we say the original was inerrant we aren't claiming to know exactly what was in it, only that we know it was inspired in a way copies aren't. But we do pretty much know what the originals looked like based on all the copies from them. It's a rigorous science reconstructing earlier texts, not perfect but pretty trustworthy.
Another thing that convinces a person of overall inerrancy, and certainly of the authenticity of what is now our canon, is the ways it all hangs together, each part referring to other parts and sewing it all together. But only a believer would appreciate this kind of internal evidence.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by jar, posted 07-29-2006 12:16 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by jar, posted 07-29-2006 12:38 PM Faith has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 89 of 158 (336319)
07-29-2006 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Faith
07-29-2006 12:08 PM


Re: INERRANCY
faith writes:
know because I too have the Holy Spirit and do not put my trust in men or I'd trust all the modern scholars who are constantly disrupting the traditional Bible.
you don't trust them because you think they're wrong or because they are constantly disrupting the traditional Bible' ?
Edited by Legend, : misquote

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Faith, posted 07-29-2006 12:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 07-29-2006 12:35 PM Legend has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 90 of 158 (336320)
07-29-2006 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Legend
07-29-2006 12:32 PM


Re: INERRANCY
you don't trust them because you think they're wrong or because they are constantly disrupting the traditional Bible' ?
Both. They're synonymous really.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Legend, posted 07-29-2006 12:32 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Legend, posted 07-29-2006 1:24 PM Faith has replied

  
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