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Author Topic:   If god has a plan, then doesn't that make prayer worthless?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18170
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 46 of 63 (198109)
04-10-2005 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by tsig
04-10-2005 4:35 PM


Re: the anthropomorphic Almighty
DHA writes:
Jesus allowed satan to kill him?
In essence, yes. It was people who crucified Him, but those people were being influenced by Satan.
DHA writes:
So he just creates hell and greases the skids under all who do not believe as you do and is not responsible?
It is one thing to have freedom to believe as you want. You could go on the roof, proclaim that you could fly because you believed that gravity was not absolute, and then proceed to fall flat despite your beliefs.
I don't want to get into the whole belief thing in this thread, but let me ask you this.
If God exists, and If He created Hell and If He is responsible for creating Hell and Evil, He is STILL not responsible for your decisions. It would be as if I made a hangmans noose in the backyard for evil people and you chose not to listen to me and went and hung yourself. OR...you chose not to listen to me and I was the source of all good. Ultimately, you would be hanged by virtue of ignoring your source. (Thats where your freewill will get you)

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 Message 45 by tsig, posted 04-10-2005 4:35 PM tsig has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by tsig, posted 04-10-2005 5:34 PM Phat has replied
 Message 52 by Citizzzen, posted 04-11-2005 12:09 PM Phat has replied

  
tsig
Member (Idle past 2885 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 47 of 63 (198118)
04-10-2005 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Phat
04-10-2005 4:54 PM


Re: the anthropomorphic Almighty
It would be as if I made a hangmans noose in the backyard for evil people and you chose not to listen to me and went and hung yourself.
Sounds like a lawsuit. Puting dangerous things in the backyard?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 04-10-2005 4:54 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Phat, posted 04-10-2005 6:04 PM tsig has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18170
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 48 of 63 (198125)
04-10-2005 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by tsig
04-10-2005 5:34 PM


Re: the anthropomorphic Almighty
Yeah I know. I suppose that there should be a class action suit against God for not allowing any alternative options to be allowed besides Him. In that sort of a court case, however..Who would be the Judge?
God Almighty v. People

This message is a reply to:
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tsig
Member (Idle past 2885 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 49 of 63 (198200)
04-11-2005 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Phat
04-10-2005 6:04 PM


the alternative
Yeah I know. I suppose that there should be a class action suit against God for not allowing any alternative options to be allowed besides Him. In that sort of a court case, however..Who would be the Judge?
God Almighty v. People
Well there is always the alternative.

This message is a reply to:
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Angeldust
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 63 (198246)
04-11-2005 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Nicked
04-10-2005 5:02 AM


Re: That's exactly the point!
Either none of them are wholly correct or some of them are wholly correct, in which case there are a lot of christians headed for their hell, whatever that is.
I think it was the Moravians who kept to the slogan, "In essentials, unity, in non-essentials, diversity, in all things, charity."
If we can agree on what the essentials are, then diversity in the non-essentials is not a big deal. I don't believe someone is going to hell because they believe that God responds differently to prayer than I think he does.
The problem (one of them) with Christianity today is that it's become more and more about cognitive consent to a creed or other statement of belief than it has about personal relationship which is the calling that scripture is saturated with. But don't ask me, I'm from a holiness strand of the church. Be Christians, not just be like the world and say you "believe" in God. I think it's James (could be wrong, too short on time to look) that says "You believe in one God, good, even the demons believe that and shudder."
It really doesn't matter how/why you believe God responds to prayer. In the long run, he'll respond/not respond not based on your beliefs but on his character.
I'll get off my soapbox now.....

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18170
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 51 of 63 (198248)
04-11-2005 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Angeldust
04-11-2005 8:46 AM


Re: That's exactly the point!
angeldust on soapbox writes:
It really doesn't matter how/why you believe God responds to prayer. In the long run, he'll respond/not respond not based on your beliefs but on his character.
Hear, Hear! I thoroughly agree! I might add that He will respond based on our relationship with His character as well.

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Citizzzen
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 63 (198293)
04-11-2005 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Phat
04-10-2005 4:54 PM


The Celestial Hangman
Ok, we are a little off track, but I think that free will certainly ties into the original discussion...
Phatboy writes:
If God exists, and If He created Hell and If He is responsible for creating Hell and Evil, He is STILL not responsible for your decisions
Well, hang on (See below for big laughs...) God also made me, and my nature, or spirit. So, he knows what sort of "evidence" I would need to overcome my doubts. If he doesn't provide that level of evidence, then who is to blame for me acting the way I was made?
Also, if God didn't want anyone to go to Hell, why did he make one? Surely a heaven for the righteous and simply death for the non-believers would have served as a carrot for people. Why the stick also?
Phatboy writes:
It would be as if I made a hangman's noose in the backyard for evil people and you chose not to listen to me and went and hung yourself. OR...you chose not to listen to me and I was the source of all good. Ultimately, you would be hanged by virtue of ignoring your source. (That's where your freewill will get you)
How about this, you could build an invisible noose that defies all logic and human experience. You could answer all requests for hard facts about the invisible noose by saying, "You just gotta have faith", or, "Who are you to begin to understand the mind of the eternal hangman..." And then, when my nature (Which you created, see above) refuses to allow me to avoid the invisible noose, I hang myself. And you, the most powerful, loving, caring being ever devised could wash your hands clean, saying that it was a choice of my own free will...
Citizzzen
This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 04-11-2005 12:38 PM

The message is ended, go in peace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 04-10-2005 4:54 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 04-12-2005 12:50 AM Citizzzen has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18170
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 53 of 63 (198428)
04-12-2005 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Citizzzen
04-11-2005 12:09 PM


Re: The Celestial Hangman
Lets look at what you said another way,OK? Let me change a couple of words in your statements and then YOU decide....
God also made me, and my nature, or spirit. So, he knows what sort of "evidence" I would need to overcome my doubts. If he doesn't provide that level of evidence, then who is to blame for me acting the way I was made?
OK. He Himself IS the level of evidence. Trust in Him and you WILL overcome. But lets change a couple of words and try this sentence again.
God also made me, and my nature, or spirit. So, he knows what sort of "evidence" I could choose to overcome my doubts. If he doesn't provide that level of evidence, then who is to blame for me acting the way I was made?
So? Whose choice is it? Is it your choice to trust HIM or is it HIS choice to make it so you would automatically choose? There is a level of Faith that you must accept.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 04-11-2005 09:51 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Citizzzen, posted 04-11-2005 12:09 PM Citizzzen has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 60 by Citizzzen, posted 04-12-2005 10:47 PM Phat has not replied

  
tsig
Member (Idle past 2885 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 54 of 63 (198436)
04-12-2005 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Phat
04-12-2005 12:50 AM


Re: The Celestial Hangman
There is a level of Faith that you must accept.
been there, done that, got the scars.

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StormWolfx2x
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 63 (198440)
04-12-2005 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by purpledawn
04-10-2005 12:08 PM


Re: Prayer of Request
thankyou for actully reading what I wrote and not just what you wanted to hear, i think your one of the few that did

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 Message 31 by purpledawn, posted 04-10-2005 12:08 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
StormWolfx2x
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 63 (198443)
04-12-2005 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by StormWolfx2x
04-04-2005 1:36 AM


I think I can conclude this topic now, this thread did convince me to add a few words to my original post. (the words all inclusive)
NOTE: prayer as it is mentioned in the following references only prayer that asks for something, as others pointed out prayer that is for personal sprituality and a "relationship with god" does not apply.
One of the following MUST be true
1. Prayer does not effect the outcome of events, because god is omniscient, all powerful, and infallible and has an all inclusive plan.
2. God does not have an all inclusive plan, is omniscient, all powerful, and infallible and as such can influence the outcome of events, and he chooses to do so based partially on prayer.
or
3. God has an all inclusive plan and can effect outcomes, choosing to do so partially on prayer, but he is not omniscient, all powerful, and infallible(because he cannot affect free will) so his plan may be altered by the actions of mortals, and he counters this by answering prayers.
please restrict any future replys to point out actual flaws in logic, not griping about which option you don't like.
This message has been edited by StormWolfx2x, 04-13-2005 03:53 AM

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 59 by Nicked, posted 04-12-2005 5:50 PM StormWolfx2x has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3433 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 57 of 63 (198516)
04-12-2005 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by StormWolfx2x
04-12-2005 2:48 AM


Which One?
quote:
One of the following MUST be true
Unfortunately we don't know which one IS true.
BTW, omnipotent means all powerful. Are you wanting to include omniscient, which means all knowing?
IOW, omnipotent (all powerful), omniscient (all knowing), and infallible.
If you include omniscient in your statements, then the Bible supports that God did not have an all inclusive plan and limited omniscience.
2 Samuel 6:6-7
When they came to the threshing floor of nacon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled. The LORD's anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down and he died there beside the ark of God.
An all-knowing-down-to-the-minute-details God would not have an anger response because he already knew what was going to happen.
So in choice number 2, his omniscience would be limited to a general overview along with his plan.
What do you think?

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by StormWolfx2x, posted 04-12-2005 2:48 AM StormWolfx2x has replied

Replies to this message:
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StormWolfx2x
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 63 (198655)
04-12-2005 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by purpledawn
04-12-2005 8:38 AM


Re: Which One?
lol yep, my bad on grammer there post changed

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Nicked
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 63 (198777)
04-12-2005 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by StormWolfx2x
04-12-2005 2:48 AM


The question posed by the thread topic is "If god has a plan, then doesn't that make prayer worthless?" and your opening paragraph "What would be the point on praying for an outcome if god had already decided the outcome. Unless god does not have a plan, because if god is omnipotent, all powerful, and infallible, then truly his plan cannot be changed based on the desires of a mere mortal."
Actually, as it stands I think your logic is an irrelevance because you have restricted the definition of prayer to an activity that is undertaken to effect an alteration to a plan, so effecting an outcome (favourable or beneficial?). I don't believe you can extrapolate your logic to answer the question posed by the thread topic until you have defined what prayer actually means.
Do you need to change the topic heading if you only want to proceed to discuss your restricted definition and the logic arising from it?
EDIT - I won't change my post because it still stands, but I acknowledge that purpledawn said very much the same thing in thread 31, I should have read back, apologies for the repeat.
This message has been edited by Nicked, 04-12-2005 04:54 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by StormWolfx2x, posted 04-12-2005 2:48 AM StormWolfx2x has replied

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Citizzzen
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 63 (198817)
04-12-2005 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Phat
04-12-2005 12:50 AM


Blind Faith required?
"...OK. He Himself IS the level of evidence. Trust in Him and you WILL overcome..."
If there can be no available proof, before I have faith, why should I choose Christianity over Islam, or Hinduism? All these religions have many devout followers, and they would all claim to offer a relationship with God, if I would only have faith.
God also made me, and my nature, or spirit. So, he knows what sort of "evidence" I could choose to overcome my doubts. If he doesn't provide that level of evidence, then who is to blame for me acting the way I was made... So? Whose choice is it? Is it your choice to trust HIM or is it HIS choice to make it so you would automatically choose? There is a level of Faith that you must accept
Well, I was apparently made in such a way that I don't easily trust anything without proof... Unless it fits the rational world I see all around me. If God made me particularly skeptical, wouldn't he have an obligation to provide me with some higher level of evidence? I mean, if he can "speak" Spanish to Spaniards, and reach the deaf and the blind, surely he can reach me, if he wants to... All I am asking for is some compelling reason to invest my faith, instead I get promises of great things if I believe blindly, and eternal damnation if I don't...
Citizzzen
This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 04-12-2005 10:14 PM

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