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Author Topic:   If god has a plan, then doesn't that make prayer worthless?
StormWolfx2x
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 63 (196595)
04-04-2005 1:36 AM


What would be the point on praying for an outcome if god had already decided the outcome. Unless god does not have a plan, because if god is omnipotent, all powerful, and infallible, then truly his plan cannot be changed based on the desires of a mere mortal.
Logically then either
1. prayer does not effect the outcome of events, because if it did it would violate gods plan.
2. God does not have a plan, is omnipotent, all powerful, and infallible and as such can influence the outcome of events, and he chooses to do so based partially on prayer.
or
3. God has a plan and can effect outcomes, choosing to do so partially on prayer, but he is not omnipotent, all powerful, and infallible so his plan may be altered by the actions of mortals, and he counters this by answering prayers.
At least 1 of those statements MUST be true.
I already posted this as a reply but I think it would make a good topic as well.
{Added some blank lines. Did some capitalization at beginnings of sentences and periods at end of sentences. - Adminnemooseus}
This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 04-07-2005 02:59 AM

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StormWolfx2x
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 63 (197379)
04-07-2005 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by StormWolfx2x
04-04-2005 1:36 AM


Bumpity bump?
partly a bump, but I would like an admin to acknowlege this post.
If its not acceptable can you please tell me why, just for my own personal future reference?
-thanks
This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 04-07-2005 03:46 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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StormWolfx2x
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 63 (197608)
04-08-2005 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
04-07-2005 6:03 AM


Re: Prayer is part of the plan
I still think that your scenarios fall into my original set of options
1) Why can't prayer be part of the overall plan?
Would fall into option #1
1. Prayer does not affect the outcome of events, because if it did it would violate gods plan.
2)Why can't non-prayer also be part of that same plan?
Again would fall into option #1
3) Are human decisions, foreknown by God, included as part of the overall plan?
If yes, then again option #1
If no, then option #2
God does not have a plan, is omnipotent, all powerful, and infallible and as such can influence the outcome of events, and he chooses to do so based partially on prayer.
4) In the final analysis, is not each and every one of us accountable only to our emotions and decisions of THIS present moment?
In other words, if I decided not to pray yesterday, that decision is still open for review at this point in time. Ultimately, my relationship with God (or, freely chosen without Him) is based upon my decision at any given point in time.
Since this is not a scenario I can’t fit it into an option. However I would contest that logically if God has a plan for everything, and he is infallible, then free will does not exist, only the illusion of free will. So to answer your question no we would not be responsible for our actions because all three conditions
God has a plan, god is infallible, mortals have free will.
Cannot, logically, be true at the same time.
PS: thank you admins for being so courteous with my online incompetence.

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StormWolfx2x
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 63 (197609)
04-08-2005 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by arachnophilia
04-07-2005 11:16 PM


"does prayer have to be asking for something? should it be at all?"
thats kind of what im getting at, thats why I said "praying for an outcome" that was meant to reference prayers that were asking for something, specificaly something that was not already going to happen anyways.

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StormWolfx2x
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 63 (197611)
04-08-2005 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Gary
04-07-2005 9:26 PM


"Maybe God just likes to hear people praying to him because it expands his ego and makes him feel special. Kind of like the way he used to want people to burn offerings because he liked the smell."
I know this was meant to be sarcastic, but it actually is a logical answer, and it falls squarely in option 1#.
(I guess it would be god equvilent of listeing to cristian rock )

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StormWolfx2x
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 63 (197838)
04-09-2005 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by riVeRraT
04-08-2005 7:33 AM


Re: Jesus prayed
I never said he did, personally I don't like the idea that god has a plan because it obviously interferes with free will. I also don’t think something being or not being in the bible is a huge piece of evidence in proving anything.
But if god does not have a plan, then you can refer to #2.

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StormWolfx2x
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 63 (197843)
04-09-2005 3:28 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Angeldust
04-08-2005 12:01 PM


Analysis does nothing to change the logic of my post, still one of the three must be correct. However when you said
But perhaps C.S. Lewis was right when he said "Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me."
Then C.S. Lewis just plopped himself in option #1.

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StormWolfx2x
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 63 (197847)
04-09-2005 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
04-08-2005 4:01 PM


Re: Prayer is part of the plan
I mean free will as in we have the abilitly to change the outcome of events, If free will exists, then at the very least god has a plan that does not encompass everything, and now the whole new problem of defining that line arises.
example:
Does god plan when people will die? IF yes then why get mediacl treatments.
Does god plan when the ecosystem recives damage that in turn hurts life? if yes then why try to stop pollution.
Again does god plan when people will die? If yes than how can we convict murderers of murder, after all they were only following god's plan.

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StormWolfx2x
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 63 (198440)
04-12-2005 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by purpledawn
04-10-2005 12:08 PM


Re: Prayer of Request
thankyou for actully reading what I wrote and not just what you wanted to hear, i think your one of the few that did

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StormWolfx2x
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 63 (198443)
04-12-2005 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by StormWolfx2x
04-04-2005 1:36 AM


I think I can conclude this topic now, this thread did convince me to add a few words to my original post. (the words all inclusive)
NOTE: prayer as it is mentioned in the following references only prayer that asks for something, as others pointed out prayer that is for personal sprituality and a "relationship with god" does not apply.
One of the following MUST be true
1. Prayer does not effect the outcome of events, because god is omniscient, all powerful, and infallible and has an all inclusive plan.
2. God does not have an all inclusive plan, is omniscient, all powerful, and infallible and as such can influence the outcome of events, and he chooses to do so based partially on prayer.
or
3. God has an all inclusive plan and can effect outcomes, choosing to do so partially on prayer, but he is not omniscient, all powerful, and infallible(because he cannot affect free will) so his plan may be altered by the actions of mortals, and he counters this by answering prayers.
please restrict any future replys to point out actual flaws in logic, not griping about which option you don't like.
This message has been edited by StormWolfx2x, 04-13-2005 03:53 AM

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Replies to this message:
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StormWolfx2x
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 63 (198655)
04-12-2005 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by purpledawn
04-12-2005 8:38 AM


Re: Which One?
lol yep, my bad on grammer there post changed

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StormWolfx2x
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 63 (198859)
04-13-2005 5:05 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Nicked
04-12-2005 5:50 PM


noted and changed.
The reason the logic doesn't directly answer the question posted by the thread topic is because people have pointed out that prayer is not worthless, as it serves to build a "relationship with god", relive stress, act as a time for reflection exe..... so the answer to the original topic was found a long time ago to be no, but the condition of praying to ask for things still remains which is why I altered my orignal post to something that was a litlle less short sighted.
also I meant further posts along people who were responding to me, I don't have the power nor the desire to stop the conversations other people are having.

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