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Author Topic:   If god has a plan, then doesn't that make prayer worthless?
Citizzzen
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 63 (197576)
04-07-2005 9:41 PM


Thanks to Phatboy for getting me in the game...
I asked a similar question in another proposed thread (See above) because I had the same thought. I discussed this with my Christian friend again, and a pastor friend of mine. It seems to me the key questions here are:
Q: Does God ever give people what they don't need, simply because they pray for it?
A: My pastor friend says, "Yes, if only to teach them a lesson".
Q: Does God deny people's prayers, even if they need/want what they are asking for?
A: (Same source) Yes, he has a master plan for people's lives, and it might involve hardship to learn a lesson.
So that would suggest that prayer has the ability to make day to day changes in your life. I don't know what the scriptural basis for this belief is, though. Without that, it's an interesting belief, but it's just a theory...
Citizzzen

  
Citizzzen
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 63 (198293)
04-11-2005 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Phat
04-10-2005 4:54 PM


The Celestial Hangman
Ok, we are a little off track, but I think that free will certainly ties into the original discussion...
Phatboy writes:
If God exists, and If He created Hell and If He is responsible for creating Hell and Evil, He is STILL not responsible for your decisions
Well, hang on (See below for big laughs...) God also made me, and my nature, or spirit. So, he knows what sort of "evidence" I would need to overcome my doubts. If he doesn't provide that level of evidence, then who is to blame for me acting the way I was made?
Also, if God didn't want anyone to go to Hell, why did he make one? Surely a heaven for the righteous and simply death for the non-believers would have served as a carrot for people. Why the stick also?
Phatboy writes:
It would be as if I made a hangman's noose in the backyard for evil people and you chose not to listen to me and went and hung yourself. OR...you chose not to listen to me and I was the source of all good. Ultimately, you would be hanged by virtue of ignoring your source. (That's where your freewill will get you)
How about this, you could build an invisible noose that defies all logic and human experience. You could answer all requests for hard facts about the invisible noose by saying, "You just gotta have faith", or, "Who are you to begin to understand the mind of the eternal hangman..." And then, when my nature (Which you created, see above) refuses to allow me to avoid the invisible noose, I hang myself. And you, the most powerful, loving, caring being ever devised could wash your hands clean, saying that it was a choice of my own free will...
Citizzzen
This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 04-11-2005 12:38 PM

The message is ended, go in peace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 04-10-2005 4:54 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 04-12-2005 12:50 AM Citizzzen has replied

  
Citizzzen
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 63 (198817)
04-12-2005 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Phat
04-12-2005 12:50 AM


Blind Faith required?
"...OK. He Himself IS the level of evidence. Trust in Him and you WILL overcome..."
If there can be no available proof, before I have faith, why should I choose Christianity over Islam, or Hinduism? All these religions have many devout followers, and they would all claim to offer a relationship with God, if I would only have faith.
God also made me, and my nature, or spirit. So, he knows what sort of "evidence" I could choose to overcome my doubts. If he doesn't provide that level of evidence, then who is to blame for me acting the way I was made... So? Whose choice is it? Is it your choice to trust HIM or is it HIS choice to make it so you would automatically choose? There is a level of Faith that you must accept
Well, I was apparently made in such a way that I don't easily trust anything without proof... Unless it fits the rational world I see all around me. If God made me particularly skeptical, wouldn't he have an obligation to provide me with some higher level of evidence? I mean, if he can "speak" Spanish to Spaniards, and reach the deaf and the blind, surely he can reach me, if he wants to... All I am asking for is some compelling reason to invest my faith, instead I get promises of great things if I believe blindly, and eternal damnation if I don't...
Citizzzen
This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 04-12-2005 10:14 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Phat, posted 04-12-2005 12:50 AM Phat has not replied

  
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