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Author Topic:   If god has a plan, then doesn't that make prayer worthless?
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3484 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 30 of 63 (198040)
04-10-2005 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
04-09-2005 10:10 AM


Re: GOD's plan.
quote:
Sure GOD has a plan
Acts 2:23 is the first mention, I find, of God have a predetermined plan.
Jeremiah 18:11
"So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, 'Thus says the LORD, "Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds."
Since God is devising a plan, it doesn't sound like he had a plan in place.
quote:
GOD had planned for the person murdered to live to be 100. The murderer missed that meeting. GOD planned for the murderer to live to be 100. The murderer missed that meeting too.
But you don't know that. It may have been the victims time to die.
Does the OT speak of God having a predertermined time of death for people?

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 04-09-2005 10:10 AM jar has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3484 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 31 of 63 (198052)
04-10-2005 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by StormWolfx2x
04-04-2005 1:36 AM


Prayer of Request
quote:
What would be the point on praying for an outcome if god had already decided the outcome. Unless god does not have a plan, because if god is omnipotent, all powerful, and infallible, then truly his plan cannot be changed based on the desires of a mere mortal.
In the Bible there are three kinds of prayer: Prayers of Praise, Prayers of Thanks, and Prayers of Request.
Obviously your thread is dealing with prayers of request. I've notice that many who are answering you are avoiding your main point.
quote:
3. God has a plan and can effect outcomes, choosing to do so partially on prayer, but he is not omnipotent, all powerful, and infallible so his plan may be altered by the actions of mortals, and he counters this by answering prayers.
The OT God seems to have a general plan as outlined roughly in the 10 commandments. Worship God, don't kill, steal, etc. It doesn't seem to present a God who is a micromanager determining ahead of time all the tiny details of mankind (death, birth, etc.)
Moses and Lot both asked God to alter His actions and God did.
The NT seems to start the predetermination scenerio.
If God has a general plan and can effect outcomes, does that necessarily rule out that he is omnipotent or infallible?

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by StormWolfx2x, posted 04-04-2005 1:36 AM StormWolfx2x has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by StormWolfx2x, posted 04-12-2005 2:33 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3484 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 57 of 63 (198516)
04-12-2005 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by StormWolfx2x
04-12-2005 2:48 AM


Which One?
quote:
One of the following MUST be true
Unfortunately we don't know which one IS true.
BTW, omnipotent means all powerful. Are you wanting to include omniscient, which means all knowing?
IOW, omnipotent (all powerful), omniscient (all knowing), and infallible.
If you include omniscient in your statements, then the Bible supports that God did not have an all inclusive plan and limited omniscience.
2 Samuel 6:6-7
When they came to the threshing floor of nacon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled. The LORD's anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down and he died there beside the ark of God.
An all-knowing-down-to-the-minute-details God would not have an anger response because he already knew what was going to happen.
So in choice number 2, his omniscience would be limited to a general overview along with his plan.
What do you think?

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by StormWolfx2x, posted 04-12-2005 2:48 AM StormWolfx2x has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by StormWolfx2x, posted 04-12-2005 1:54 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
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