Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,810 Year: 3,067/9,624 Month: 912/1,588 Week: 95/223 Day: 6/17 Hour: 2/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   What happens after death for an atheist?
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 76 of 162 (183177)
02-04-2005 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by robinrohan
02-04-2005 4:53 PM


Re: Gary
Dunno about Beatific Vision, but I,`ve had a number of experiences in my life. Moments of exceptional clarity. I recall being a trifle chilly, but otherwise it was memorable. I had a different vision of myself and the world and set out on a different path afterwards. During the experience, I never met God, heard any voices or a heavenly choir, had no visions of apocalyptic events, just like an overview of existence from another angle. Does this count?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by robinrohan, posted 02-04-2005 4:53 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 02-04-2005 7:25 PM Nighttrain has replied
 Message 86 by robinrohan, posted 02-05-2005 12:26 PM Nighttrain has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 77 of 162 (183178)
02-04-2005 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Nighttrain
02-04-2005 7:22 PM


Re: Gary
I recall being a trifle chilly, but otherwise it was memorable.
Well, many are cold but few are frozen.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Nighttrain, posted 02-04-2005 7:22 PM Nighttrain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Parasomnium, posted 02-05-2005 4:11 AM jar has not replied
 Message 83 by Nighttrain, posted 02-05-2005 5:06 AM jar has not replied
 Message 92 by tsig, posted 02-06-2005 5:16 AM jar has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 78 of 162 (183193)
02-04-2005 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Gary
02-04-2005 3:42 PM


Re: The Beatific Vision
consciousness is the character and the body is the actor
Gary,
I have it the other way round sort of. Consciousness is the actor. The "stuff that dreams are made on". In identifying with the contents of the mind, the neurological experience of the organism, it experiences itself as an individual, the character. The beatific vision happens when it senses briefly the actual situation but returns to its fixation or hypnosis of being an self separate from the universe. Everything is an object except pure subjectivity of consciousness that is aware of the shifting sensory and mental contents/objects.
This is a religious viewpoint from Buddhism and Advaita Vedanta. At present there is no scientific proof. I think the current research trying to account for consciousness as an emergent property will be very helpful someday as to either establishing what consciousness is, or failing in a way that lends support to the Buddhist notions.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Gary, posted 02-04-2005 3:42 PM Gary has not replied

  
Soplar
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 162 (183196)
02-04-2005 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Terry48420
02-02-2005 10:21 PM


Picking up from closed thread
Hi Terry48420
Have had a little trouble finding you after my thread was closed, but your response was so amazing that I wanted to continue the dialog. To review:
In response to my assertion
But then, either the Creator established a world in which bad things happen such as cancer, heart disease, etc., or the Creator is creating them at this time.
You responded
God created things to be perfect. No sickness, death and etc. Sickness and death were introduced into the world at the fall of man when he ate of the forbidden fruit in Genesis 3.
In response to my assertion
2. A similar set of arguments applies to the Intelligent Designer concept.
You responded
I will refer you to a book that may help: Apologetics Press has a book called "Signs of Intelligence" by William Dembski and James Kushiner. I don't personally have the book, but have heard that it is very good.
In response to my assertion
3. The question of why the explanation of the world in a book written over 2,000 is superior to the accumulated knowledge of some of the greatest minds who have ever lived.
You responded
Because it is the word of God and He should know about these things. Our scientific theories change all the time as new data is found. God does not change
I must say that I find your responses truly amazing.
Re item 1. I would be most interested in a little more detail re how the eating of an apple in the Garden of Eden has led to all of the afflictions affecting humans. Did God just get pissed off and change everything — adding disease, etc.? While I'm not a Bible Scholar, I don't recall anything like that in the Bible
Re item 2, I haven’t read the book, but, if I get a chance I will try as I find irrational arguments interesting (I once read a book by an eminent scientist who argued that the Special Theory of Relativity was wrong because it didn’t make sense — there have been hundreds of experiments testing the theory and none have shown it wrong). But back to ID. The subject of ID made the pages of the Wall Street Journal recently. In response to an article mentioning the first peer reviewed article supporting ID, one respondent wrote
The reason most scientists reject ID is that it fails to add anything to our understanding [of the world in which we live]. Placing any kind of ‘super intelligence in our explanation chain of origins of life simply puts to final question off. If one proposes that some kind of intelligence is behind it all, then one must, in all fairness, inquire into the origin of that intelligence and so on, an infinite regression
I couldn’t have put it better. I would be interested in your explanation of what an ID brings to the party. Given an ID, which we cannot know, we still must figure out how the world works if we wish to make any progress — unless of course we really shouldn’t tamper with the ID’s work
Re item3 — your response here is what I really find most amazing. I find it difficult to believe that you don’t understand that Because it is the word of God isn’t an answer as you have zero proof that he did — it’s the old because is because argument. But, if you really believe that Genesis trumps libraries full of learned books, then you imply that thousands of people are wasting, have wasted their time; that they have been duped by their data, e.g., that the indication of the millions of years of earth’s existence as indicated by radiometric dating is all wrong and those who claim it to be true are either lying are deluded; that the red shifts which show the universe to be immensely large and old are figments of peoples imaginations. Please enlighten this poor scientist as to why the knowledge base that has been accumulated over the past few hundred years is all wrong -- I think this the ultimate hubris. While you are at it, tell me how the book of Genesis explains, for example, the fossil record as I don't think it's mentioned -- not surprising as I don’t think the writers were aware of fossils at the time (but God must have been).
I await your replay
Regards,
Soplar

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Terry48420, posted 02-02-2005 10:21 PM Terry48420 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by AdminNosy, posted 02-05-2005 12:19 AM Soplar has replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 80 of 162 (183197)
02-05-2005 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Soplar
02-04-2005 11:52 PM


Re: Picking up from closed thread
Can't pick up that here. It is off topic. Sorry, if you think the closed thread has life left then propose a continuation thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Soplar, posted 02-04-2005 11:52 PM Soplar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Soplar, posted 02-05-2005 11:15 AM AdminNosy has not replied

  
Arkansas Banana Boy
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 162 (183215)
02-05-2005 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by PecosGeorge
02-04-2005 1:13 PM


Re: Reply to DrJones*
Thanks PecosGeorge...thats what I get for trying to remember quote attributions without looking them up first. Thanks for the correction and reference.
ABB

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by PecosGeorge, posted 02-04-2005 1:13 PM PecosGeorge has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 82 of 162 (183221)
02-05-2005 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by jar
02-04-2005 7:25 PM


Wordplay
jar writes:
Well, many are cold but few are frozen.
Brilliant!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 02-04-2005 7:25 PM jar has not replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 83 of 162 (183230)
02-05-2005 5:06 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by jar
02-04-2005 7:25 PM


Re: Gary
Well, many are cold but few are frozen.
Lol. Well done.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 02-04-2005 7:25 PM jar has not replied

  
Soplar
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 162 (183261)
02-05-2005 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by AdminNosy
02-05-2005 12:19 AM


Re: Picking up from closed thread
As you can see, I was trying to continue the dialog with Terry48420. From my viewpoint, Terry's responses/views are absurd and I was hoping Terry would amplify on them. Apparenlty this is not possible.
This is a problem with terminating a thread when "it gets to long" Not clear why 300 is considered too long unless you have a storage problem.
Soplar

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by AdminNosy, posted 02-05-2005 12:19 AM AdminNosy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by AdminAsgara, posted 02-05-2005 12:04 PM Soplar has not replied

  
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 85 of 162 (183273)
02-05-2005 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Soplar
02-05-2005 11:15 AM


Re: Picking up from closed thread
In the past we have had problems with data corruption after 300 posts. With our new software, that supposedly is not a real issue anymore but many here, and I am one of them, feel that 300 is still a good cut off point. By then many threads have lost their way and are no longer anywhere near on topic. Starting a continuation thread gives posters a chance to clarify points and focus the discussion again. If the main thrust of the topic has been veering off course a new thread can pick that up in a more topical way.
We generally do not have problems with this. If an opponant won't follow you to a new thread to continue a discussion, chances are they wouldn't continue in the old thread either.
Ok, now I am off topic.
Any further discussion of this issue can be taken to the appropriate thread pulled from my signature.

AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe

http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Soplar, posted 02-05-2005 11:15 AM Soplar has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 162 (183275)
02-05-2005 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Nighttrain
02-04-2005 7:22 PM


Does it count?
Nighttrain writes:
Dunno about Beatific Vision, but I,`ve had a number of experiences in my life. Moments of exceptional clarity. I recall being a trifle chilly, but otherwise it was memorable. I had a different vision of myself and the world and set out on a different path afterwards. During the experience, I never met God, heard any voices or a heavenly choir, had no visions of apocalyptic events, just like an overview of existence from another angle. Does this count?
Your number of experiences might very well count but we need more information. What were the specific circumstances of your chilliness? In what sense did you have a different vision of yourself and the world?
As regards the absence in your experiences of having visions and hearing choirs and so forth, none of those ingredients are necessary. On the contrary, such claims would tend to invalidate the experience.
I am very curious about this since I have never transcended anything and have never had a sudden change in my vision of myself or the world or anything else that I can think of though I have often wished to.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 02-05-2005 11:26 AM
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 02-05-2005 11:29 AM

The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.---Milton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Nighttrain, posted 02-04-2005 7:22 PM Nighttrain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Nighttrain, posted 02-05-2005 10:02 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 93 by tsig, posted 02-06-2005 5:25 AM robinrohan has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 87 of 162 (183354)
02-05-2005 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Gary
02-03-2005 10:23 PM


Time
Since there might be no time in heaven, that would make boredom impossible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Gary, posted 02-03-2005 10:23 PM Gary has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by sidelined, posted 02-06-2005 1:14 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 88 of 162 (183361)
02-05-2005 9:53 PM


Atheists heaven
Atheists don't need heaven, they got this:
Burning Man

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 89 of 162 (183365)
02-05-2005 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by robinrohan
02-05-2005 12:26 PM


Re: Does it count?
Hi,Rob, nothing very mysterious or supernatural about the experiences. Most took place during periods of high stress. I never induced them with illegal substances (or legal, come to think of it ), but it was almost as if my thinking or vision moved to a higher level. While the coolness was a minor factor, the one lingering memory I had was absolute clarity, no emotions involved, just a new way of looking at my life from an overall viewpoint.One experience involved receiving (?) information necessary for the formation of a new welfare organisation. As fast as I could write, new ideas and directions flooded into my mind, most of which worked out in practice. Creos might say it was divine guidance, but it all involved human behavior, no warnings, no retribution. Was I finally getting my act together? Was I evolving? Who knows? Thing is, I am a better person today for the insights.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by robinrohan, posted 02-05-2005 12:26 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by robinrohan, posted 02-06-2005 11:41 AM Nighttrain has replied

  
tsig
Member (Idle past 2908 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 90 of 162 (183427)
02-06-2005 4:46 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Parasomnium
02-03-2005 9:09 AM


Simple
Of course I can, it's simple. All I have to do is think of the time before I was born. My mind was just... not there. There was nothing for me before my birth. I had no life to live yet, I had no influence in the world, I didn't know what was happening in the world. I was just just... not there! Pretty much as you described. And you know what? I didn't care, just as I won't care after I die. So, for consistency's sake, I might as well not care now. I think I'll just have some fun in the mean time, if it's allright with you.
Yes it is very simple, we have life for a while then we don't. If you don't enjoy your life, who will?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Parasomnium, posted 02-03-2005 9:09 AM Parasomnium has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024