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Author Topic:   What makes you unbelieve Crash ?
Unseul
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 200 (103154)
04-27-2004 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by mike the wiz
04-27-2004 5:36 PM


OK, stop.
There is a hell of lot of trouble in societies, and a lot of facts in the past that religions have been the cause of many massacres, genocides, wars etc etc. So todays societies (so much for i before e cept after c...?) cannot be totally blamed due to lack of faith. Im reasonanly sure that us athiests are in the minority overall by a long way. Faith has lead to a lot of trouble. Though i admit, mans greed has probably led to more.
And before you dismiss my idea so quickly, surely you are making several suppositions by claiming that humans are too stupid to have come up with god and christ. Many different religions all have their own gods, some of these religions have all powerful gods, now surely if they dont all exists someone must have thought them up. Personally i dont like that arguement as i feel its used to much, and doesnt explain a lot, but it still seems to fit. Perhaps a better way of looking at it would be to look at some of the amazing science fiction (and hell most of science) that humans have come up with, some of that stuff is pretty out of this world, and easily into the supernatural. I personally have very few doubts that someone called Jesus, lived, claimed many things, was crucified etc etc, but not necessarily was gods son.
People have always been selfish, i agree, its in our nature, it is our nature. However its also in our nature that our family survives, continuation of genes etc. There are many countries that have laws in place that protect and place a much similar onus as those in the bible. I'll admit i dont believe there is a country where it is law to Love thy neighbour, but it would be a tricky one to enforce would it not. Its still a wonderful principal which should be attempted to be met. But yes i firmly believe that humans can come up with these principles by themselves. I have no faith, and yet i wish my neighbours no harm, i try to get by as inoffensively as possible towards others. And tho i may covet another mans wife (Brad Pitt's etc etc), i certainly would not act on such impulses. Im not obeying any scriptures to come to these feelings, i am doing what i feel is right, and also obeying the law.
What you must remember is although many of these principles are hard to live by they form something greater, by you agreeing not to hurt others, there are a hell of a lot more people out there agreeing not to hurt you. There are almost always selfish aspects to every facet of human behaviour.

Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by mike the wiz, posted 04-27-2004 5:36 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by mike the wiz, posted 04-27-2004 8:09 PM Unseul has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 122 of 200 (103179)
04-27-2004 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Unseul
04-27-2004 6:23 PM


Faith has lead to a lot of trouble. Though i admit, mans greed has probably led to more.
Faith in itself leads to no bad thing. If I trust in God, how will that cause any trouble?
And before you dismiss my idea so quickly, surely you are making several suppositions by claiming that humans are too stupid to have come up with god and christ.
But do notice that is my only claim. I do not hold other religions in the same regard. There's no point in me pretending otherwise. It is written I shall have no other gods. To me, the bible and the wisdom therein does not come from man - nor the teachings thereof. The teachings are to live for God and spirit and to reject the flesh. If it was the inspiration of man, it would teach us to serve the flesh and other fleshly selfish teachings. Just look at how much man lusts after woman, for example:
And tho i may covet another mans wife (Brad Pitt's etc etc), i certainly would not act on such impulses
My flesh is also guilty of the thing, what then shall we do?
People have always been selfish, i agree, its in our nature, it is our nature. However its also in our nature that our family survives, continuation of genes etc.
We may survive a lot more, if we help each other = the spirit. We are without excuse. The nature of the Godhead is seen in the things which are made. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Selfishness comes from nature as you rightly said = the flesh. Do not confuse the gathering of wheat for our families with the nature of the flesh. I also hunger, is that a selfish thing? I trow not. If I give my last piece of bread to you, shall I feel the spirit burn within me? - Indeed I will. It is possible to overcome ourselves, nothing shall be impossible with God.
Im not obeying any scriptures to come to these feelings, i am doing what i feel is right,
It is no bad thing that you try to do what is right. I have nothing to say against this part of your post. You unwittingly follow the teaching "do unto others as you would unto yourself". So then, maybe you are indeed fruit of a good tree, nevertheless, I will reserve judgement for my own self and seek not to judge you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Unseul, posted 04-27-2004 6:23 PM Unseul has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Unseul, posted 04-27-2004 9:14 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
Unseul
Inactive Member


Message 123 of 200 (103191)
04-27-2004 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by mike the wiz
04-27-2004 8:09 PM


OK, I agree faith is no bad thing, i truly envy those who believe fully. However peoples belief in their gods has caused trouble, strangely enough most the time they are doing the opposite of whatever scriptures they are following.
As i said other religions have come up with all powerful deities and although u may believe they are wrong, as well they may be, there is no denying they believe their deity to be every bit as all powerful as yours.
As for what we shall do for our desires of the flesh, we will not pursue our endevours after Mrs Aniston, we will obey laws, personal morals, and in your case what your religion tells you.
As i said, we do help each other, very much so. And this is still well within the confines of nature, i want my genes to continue, my genes are within me, and also within my family. However we also want to protect our tribe, as they are the ones that give us stability to extend our own lives, and so now we feel close to our friends, and anyone who happens to belong in a club the same as us etc, our feelings of fraternity spread far, but all i believe originating from self interest.
Personally i am a great believer in human intelligence, i do believe that we can, and have already, perform acts of true altruism. Though many argue that we still havent escaped it totally because we now have an ego to play with, and tho we dont benefit at all physically, we can get a little buzz from being generous, this could easily have arised to try and encourage altruism whilst we were in a position where only those close enough to be family were our entire tribe. But im still optimistic that there are times when even that is not sought.
You think that i unwittingly follow do unto others? i think its a damn fine idea, and so i use it. I have nothing against the morals of most religions they tend to be of the highest order, but just because i try to follow them doesn't mean that i am any more religous than the next athiest.
As i have said, and read (Richard Dawkins, Desmond Morris are particularly good), i believe that humans are still very much effected by their nature, but are reaching the stage where we are breaking through that. Our intelligence has certainly allowed us to withstand much that would send any other creature under similar circumstances quite mad.
Yes scriptures have been written that are basically impossible for most humans to live by, because basically we still have our natural urges, but we can think of these wonderful possibilities and how nice it would be if everyone was like this. I dont need a God to make me think of these things, i can appreciate the possible benefits whatever. And so i dont see how God can be shown to exist purely because of these rules (see that nifty turn to get us right back on topic )

Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by mike the wiz, posted 04-27-2004 8:09 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by mike the wiz, posted 04-27-2004 9:35 PM Unseul has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 124 of 200 (103196)
04-27-2004 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Unseul
04-27-2004 9:14 PM


I have enjoyed your posts Unseul, and have percieved your discresion. Well done to you, for giving heed to good scripture. "He that listens to my sayings - and does them, builds his house upon a rock" (similar words).
i want my genes to continue, my genes are within me, and also within my family.
I don't want my genes to continue and/or indifferent. My genes are a product of nature, and the necessities of this life. Yet if God requires children of Abraham, he is able to raise them from a stone.
we also want to protect our tribe, as they are the ones that give us stability to extend our own lives, and so now we feel close to our friends, and anyone who happens to belong in a club the same as us etc, our feelings of fraternity spread far, but all i believe originating from self interest.
I myslef - do not adhere to this evolutionary teaching. I prefer the spirit to the flesh, I always have. Love is God, and only love can conquer self-interest. Your problem is, that you ask your god evolution to explain all things to you via a biological doctrine. I say this NOT to offend you, but it strikes me as odd that so many answers come from this "evolution". I worship the Creator, not the creature.
we can get a little buzz from being generous,
That "buz" is the beginning of feeling God.
I dont need a God to make me think of these things, i can appreciate the possible benefits whatever. And so i dont see how God can be shown to exist purely because of these rules
I cannot show that God exists, yet I know he does. If there is a way I could show he does then I would. You can truly test this with a prayer, like brother 1.6' did earlier in the thread. It is only by opening your mind to the possibility that you can see what happens next.
You don't need a god - you need God. It is self-deceit to say you don't need God. Evolution cannot help you, it is not a god, it is just a theory about nature. If you cannot see the truth of Christ then you will not hear me either.
People ask their god evolution - and it gives certain answers, yet it will not victor or replace God. It is best for us to leave it as a science that tells us "how" not "why". It is confusion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Unseul, posted 04-27-2004 9:14 PM Unseul has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Unseul, posted 04-28-2004 6:55 AM mike the wiz has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 125 of 200 (103253)
04-28-2004 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by mike the wiz
04-27-2004 5:28 PM


quote:
I find it hard to believe you have chosen to side with this newbie.
Eh, I do think what he said was a bit over-general and kinda harsh, but I do pretty much agree with him.
It isn't really a taking of sides, in my view; just piggy backing on his post.
quote:
It seems to me that you say one thing Schraff, but believe another. You say you think there is a possibility of God. You seem to always be arguing against that possibility.
"Possible" doesn't mean "probable", mike.
All you wanted to know when you asked if I thought that it was possible that god existed was a yes or no answer.
I should clarify that I do not argue against the possibility of god, but I DO argue against the idea that anyone has any lock on the truth, regardless of how strongly they feel that they do. I also reject certain notions of god that contradict what we know of nature.
Since I know how fallible and prone to bias and wishful thinking we humans are, and how religious feelings and experiences can be induced chemically and with electrical stimulation of the brain, I have a great deal of skepticism that any supernatural entities or phenomena exists. There just isn't any evidence.
I also think that there is no reason to think that we would be able to comprehend god or gods in any way if they exist.
We just don't have any way of knowing, so I can't make a determination. That's not the same as Atheism, but in practice, I suppose I might as well be one.
quote:
And you know that I myself do not see it as a bad thing necessarily, if we have different names for the one true God. Now you say I have arrogance because of my lack of doubt?
I thought it was okay for me to believe in what I want?
Lack of any doubt in one's beliefs, especially when the beliefs are rather arbitrary (such as faith-baased beliefs) can be taken as arrogance.
Belief, in and of itself isn't arrogant.
I don't think you behave arrogantly, either; quite the opposite most of the time, actually.
quote:
Men are not more important to women - and I would never argue such things. I don't claim that because we have always believed - he exists. I claim he exists.
Analogy, mike; it was an analogy.
You actually said, if I recall correctly, that people today didn't make up god, and that nobody can prove that humans didn't always belive in god. Didn't you then imply that this implied that god exists?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by mike the wiz, posted 04-27-2004 5:28 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-28-2004 12:53 AM nator has replied
 Message 128 by mike the wiz, posted 04-28-2004 10:56 AM nator has replied

  
One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6156 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 126 of 200 (103263)
04-28-2004 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by nator
04-28-2004 12:21 AM


Pointer
Just want to point out one thing about schrafinator's last post:
Lack of any doubt in one's beliefs, especially when the beliefs are rather arbitrary (such as faith-baased beliefs) can be taken as arrogance.
Can be, but I strongly assert that it isn't. For one thing, there is no believer alive today that I know of without doubt. I think it's safe to say most believers do have doubts and questions including myself; but that has nothing to do with arrogance. What you may view as arrogance could in fact just be strength of faith. If someone were to believe in God so strongly it wouldn't be arrogance anymore than you saying beyond doubt that your best friend exists.

Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by nator, posted 04-28-2004 12:21 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by nator, posted 04-30-2004 12:21 AM One_Charred_Wing has replied
 Message 135 by nator, posted 04-30-2004 1:58 AM One_Charred_Wing has not replied
 Message 136 by rstrats, posted 04-30-2004 1:56 PM One_Charred_Wing has replied

  
Unseul
Inactive Member


Message 127 of 200 (103322)
04-28-2004 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by mike the wiz
04-27-2004 9:35 PM


One thing just to pick up on mike, the usual i dont see evolution as a god, i see it as a process.
Obviously we see things differently, i find scientific explainations wherever i look. Im not sure but you seemed to suggest that you dont look after your friends and family (which im sure is not true) perhaps you meant that you dont specifically look after them over others. Basically this is still very similar to what i believe, we are indeed all still humans, and so will look out for each other, to help are own continuation and possibly that buzz. The buzz incidently i believe is probably just some happy chemicals (cerotonin is the well known one, mmmm chocalate) being released to give me a reward for doing something that previously would have been beneficial for the continuation of my genes. Im very much with Richard Dawkins on the fact that we are just large walking machines designed specifically to help continue our genes. Nothing special, just the next step in the process.
I dont ask evolution to help me, i try not to ask anyone to help me as i dont like being a hindrance. But if i did need help i would first goto my friends, not to some supernatural being that i have never met and dont know. Im not saying there arent times when i feel really down or worried (funnily enough it was at the worst of these times that i became an athiest) but i dont feel the need to ask for some supernatural being to help, its my life, my responsibility, and in the end, things nearly always seem worse than they are. I find laughter is the best solution to most things.
Blessed are those who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused. (Now theres a line that should have been in scriptures.)
Unseul

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by mike the wiz, posted 04-27-2004 9:35 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by mike the wiz, posted 04-28-2004 1:00 PM Unseul has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 128 of 200 (103357)
04-28-2004 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by nator
04-28-2004 12:21 AM


I should clarify that I do not argue against the possibility of god, but I DO argue against the idea that anyone has any lock on the truth, regardless of how strongly they feel that they do.
Yet you do NEVER argue for God. Even you have argued with such things as design problems in humans etc. I have never known you to argue FOR the possibility of God.
Since I know how fallible and prone to bias and wishful thinking we humans are, and how religious feelings and experiences can be induced chemically and with electrical stimulation of the brain, I have a great deal of skepticism that any supernatural entities or phenomena exists. There just isn't any evidence.
The evidence for God is so overwhelming it is laughable that you can say there is no evidence for God. Only in this present day - world of know-it-alls, could such a claim be made. Go ahead Schraff, tout that there is no evidence for God - it won't effect his existence.
Belief, in and of itself isn't arrogant.
And doubt is useless to me. Doubt will only help the cause of unbelief, and hinder my progress. I have no reason to doubt, but you do. You have reason to doubt your belief that there is no God, and you have to come back to the truth because I know already that you know it. So you have no choice - it is your unavoidable destiny.
Evolution can never be your replacement god, or your "new found truth". It is just a theory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by nator, posted 04-28-2004 12:21 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by nator, posted 04-30-2004 1:06 AM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 137 by zephyr, posted 04-30-2004 2:54 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 129 of 200 (103377)
04-28-2004 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Unseul
04-28-2004 6:55 AM


Basically this is still very similar to what i believe, we are indeed all still humans, and so will look out for each other, to help are own continuation and possibly that buzz. The buzz incidently i believe is probably just some happy chemicals
It is not because of our continuation - that I help others. I only help them because of the teachings of Christ. The spirit is indeed not sufficiently described as a "buz". It is a bit silly that evolution answers everything like this - it might aswell be called "defence against God and scriptures that tell us why". You see, your outlook or mindset comes up with the opposite to what the scriptures teach - meaning, if I have to be on the creation or evolution side - it will always be the creation side. Get out of the "why" section and we'll get out of the "how" section. I've a feeling NosyNed will respond to this.
I dont ask evolution to help me, i try not to ask anyone to help me as i dont like being a hindrance.
There's that silly evolution philosophical outlook again. You are not a hindrance. Your sole purpose is not to please or serve evolution. Even if you don't ask for help - you are entitled to it. You are more than the sum of your parts, you are of God. You are not just an animal, you have a soul that needs not nor depends on any evolution.
Blessed are those who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused.
Indeed, I also like laughter - and generally acting a fool. My name is "wiz" because I am a "wiz" in bullsh*t, which I am proud of.
Do not be a slave to evolution. It is good science, but it cannot give you all of the answers. You are being unfair to yourself. Readt the NT - not the OT, but this time, read with an open mind. Even "pretend" to take it as Gospel.
[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 04-28-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Unseul, posted 04-28-2004 6:55 AM Unseul has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Unseul, posted 04-28-2004 4:29 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
Unseul
Inactive Member


Message 130 of 200 (103432)
04-28-2004 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by mike the wiz
04-28-2004 1:00 PM


OK, i dont help others out because i feel its the right thing to do as far as continuing my genes is concerned. i do it cos i feel its right. However i feel that there are several explainations that can be giving for this behaviour. I dont feel i have to please or serve evolution at all. I dont like being a hindrance to mates, i mean i know damn well theyve got their own problems so could probably do without listening to me whine (this is me being a hindrance to mates, they may not mind but still). All this is because basically i do believe i am just an animal, i dont believe i have a soul/spirit, i am merely an animal, albeit one with more intelligence than most. So i suppose merely our different outlooks on this part will keep us from agreeing on these topics. Im willing to accept it like this.
I dont feel i am a slave to evolution in any way. But i do feel that it can explain a lot of how i act. Admittedly when i act, i still feel its my choice, but then i realise that its origanal basis can usually be explained. This doesnt so much make me a slave to evolution, or such, but moresomething with a possible predisposition to some things (some people are predisposed to certain illnesses etc etc but dont always get them). As i said before its just the difference on our outlooks as to how important we consider humans.
I will read the NT, or at least will attempt to. Im currently in the middle of reading a fair few books, but will keep the bible going whilst i read these. Im afraid i wont take it to be gospel, however i will try and treat it with as open a mind as i treat most things (any more and my brains will fall out).
As far as being a wiz in the old bullsh*t department, i just got a grade back for 9 writeups forming a fieldcourse writeup. It totalled more than 11000 words. I got a b-. I did the whole thing the night before (and early following morning) handin. I also know my bull
Unseul

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by mike the wiz, posted 04-28-2004 1:00 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by mike the wiz, posted 04-28-2004 9:06 PM Unseul has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 131 of 200 (103538)
04-28-2004 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Unseul
04-28-2004 4:29 PM


As i said before its just the difference on our outlooks as to how important we consider humans.
It's God who tells us how important we are. I am not too interested how much I matter. If there was no bible, I would probably assume very little significance - I still do in a way, hence my empathy or admiration for atheists. I too think I am a mere spec on the window of time. It is God who tells me otherwise.
I will read the NT, or at least will attempt to. Im currently in the middle of reading a fair few books, but will keep the bible going whilst i read these. Im afraid i wont take it to be gospel, however i will try and treat it with as open a mind as i treat most things (any more and my brains will fall out).
Read John chapter one, and listen to the part about the word becoming flesh. I am glad you will read - but don't be a hindrance to God by not believing.
I got a b-. I did the whole thing the night before
B- hey - good grade! Now be a good boy and read your bible. If you believe you score an A. Bother me not with hindrance of unbelief like when you read the Old Testament and laughed at it.
You should concentrate on Christ's words also - and see how he is indeed the Messiah. Do not be hard of heart and unbelieving. "My sheep will hear my voice" - take your chance to hear the truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Unseul, posted 04-28-2004 4:29 PM Unseul has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 132 of 200 (103712)
04-29-2004 10:45 AM


Bump

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 133 of 200 (104014)
04-30-2004 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by One_Charred_Wing
04-28-2004 12:53 AM


Re: Pointer
quote:
Can be, but I strongly assert that it isn't. For one thing, there is no believer alive today that I know of without doubt.
Hmm, since I have been interacting with Creationists on this board over the last 3 years or so, I have come across quite a few believers who have never shown any sign that they had any doubts at all.
I've been at the receiving end of many insults, condescention, and venom delivered by "undoubting" Christians.
quote:
I think it's safe to say most believers do have doubts and questions including myself; but that has nothing to do with arrogance. What you may view as arrogance could in fact just be strength of faith. If someone were to believe in God so strongly it wouldn't be arrogance anymore than you saying beyond doubt that your best friend exists.
Still, there is lots and lots of evidence, available to any disinterested bystsnder who wished to verify it, that my best friend exists. There could be so much confirmation of the fact of my best friend's existence that it would be utterly unreasonable to deny his/her existence.
None of that is true of the person with faith in God. It is just as likely to the disinterested bystander that the believer is making God up out of their imagination, because there is absolutely no way to independently verify the believer's claims.
So far, there is no evidence that appeals or prayers to God/gods have an effect different from that which chance would predict.
When faith trumps reason and doubt, humans are the most vulnerable to personal biases and mistakes of logic.
This inevitably leads to arrogant thinking, such as, "I KNOW in my heart that my religion is the One True Religion, because I feel God so strongly."
To a disinterested outside observer, that is a baseles assertion, founded only upon whim and emotion. There's no way a disinterested observer can tell, remember, that God even exists, let alone determine if your religion is the "right" one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-28-2004 12:53 AM One_Charred_Wing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-30-2004 7:56 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 134 of 200 (104036)
04-30-2004 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by mike the wiz
04-28-2004 10:56 AM


quote:
Yet you do NEVER argue for God.
Nor do I argue against God.
I argue against the idea that anyone KNOWS anything about God.
I also argue against a literal interpretation of Genesis and other parts of the Bible.
quote:
Even you have argued with such things as design problems in humans etc.
When I bring up the flaws in human design, I am not arguing against God.
I am arguing against the lousy Creationist/Intelligent Design FACTUAL arguments.
The design of the human body is clearly not evidence of an Intelligent Designer/Creator, but neither is it evidence against the existence of God. It is against the IDists' particular version of God.
God could exist, just not in any way even remotely like you, or the IDiests, think.
quote:
I have never known you to argue FOR the possibility of God.
God could exist.
There, are you happy?
As an Agnostic, that's as far as I can logically go.
Remember, I argue against claims that there is evidence that God is actively involved in the day to day workings of every natural occurence in the Universe.
The philosophical arguments for and against God are a different matter, and are not bound by physical evidence at all.
quote:
The evidence for God is so overwhelming it is laughable that you can say there is no evidence for God.
This depends upon one's definition of "evidence", doesn't it?
What I mean by evidence is, specific predictions, that if found to be true, would support God's existence, AND, if found false, would falsify God's existence.
What do you mean by "evidence"?
quote:
Only in this present day - world of know-it-alls, could such a claim be made. Go ahead Schraff, tout that there is no evidence for God - it won't effect his existence
Excuse me, mike?
I'm an AGNOSTIC, remember?
That means I don't know if God exists or not.
How on earth do you get that I'm a "know it all" from that?
YOU are the one who thinks you have it all figured out, aren't you? You are completely sure, without doubt, that God exists, and nothing will ever shake you from that faith, correct?
That sounds pretty "know-it-all" to me, comparatively.
quote:
And doubt is useless to me.
Well, I have a nice bridge in Brooklyn to sell you, cheap!
...or, do you doubt me?
quote:
Doubt will only help the cause of unbelief, and hinder my progress.
People with doubt aren't the ones who become suicide bombers.
quote:
I have no reason to doubt, but you do.
I have no reason to follow a blind faith, but you do.
quote:
You have reason to doubt your belief that there is no God,
No, you are misstating my position.
I do not believe that there is no God.
I do not know if god exists or not, or even that we could comprehend God at all if God does exist.
quote:
and you have to come back to the truth because I know already that you know it. So you have no choice - it is your unavoidable destiny.
Now you just sound like the Emperor in "Star Wars-The Return of the Jedi".
The "truth" is, mike, that I don't know if God exists or not.
quote:
Evolution can never be your replacement god, or your "new found truth". It is just a theory.
No, my replacement God is the Theory of a Heliocentric Solar System.
Seriously, what on Earth makes you think that Evolutionary theory has anything to do with my philosophical world view? It IS "just" a scientific theory that explains the diversity of life on Earth.
It has nothing at all to do with whether or not God exists.
It does contradict quite a few religious myths about the origins of creatures, it's true.
Why do you think God has to be limited to what a small group of poor, nomadic humans thought he did and how he did it?
Why do you think you "know?"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by mike the wiz, posted 04-28-2004 10:56 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by mike the wiz, posted 04-30-2004 9:13 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 135 of 200 (104062)
04-30-2004 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by One_Charred_Wing
04-28-2004 12:53 AM


Re: Pointer
quote:
For one thing, there is no believer alive today that I know of without doubt. I think it's safe to say most believers do have doubts and questions including myself; but that has nothing to do with arrogance. What you may view as arrogance could in fact just be strength of faith. If someone were to believe in God so strongly it wouldn't be arrogance anymore than you saying beyond doubt that your best friend exists.
Well, here's at least one arrogant, doubt-free believer that is "alive today":
http://EvC Forum: Evolution=Bad Science Fiction (lack of transitionals) -->EvC Forum: Evolution=Bad Science Fiction (lack of transitionals)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 04-28-2004 12:53 AM One_Charred_Wing has not replied

  
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