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Author Topic:   What makes you unbelieve Crash ?
jt
Member (Idle past 5596 days)
Posts: 239
From: Upper Portion, Left Coast, United States
Joined: 04-26-2004


Message 181 of 200 (106340)
05-07-2004 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by RingoKid
05-07-2004 2:50 AM


Re: JT
reality far removed from yours yet it is no less valid than yours
I think you misunderstand the word "reality." Merriam-Webster's online defines reality as:
the quality or state of being real
It defines "real" as:
having objective independent existence
By definition, there is only one reality, which is has an objective (meaning it exists whether anyone believes it or not), independent (of who believes it or not) existence.
I do not have "my reality" and you do not have "your reality." What you and I have is an opinion of what reality is. This opinion is shaped by fallible sensory input of a small portion of reality, so yes, we cannot necessarily know what "reality" is. It is a non sequitor to go from the premise "I can't know what it is like" to "It doesn't exist."
I think you are saying "reality" but meaning something different. Could you give a definition of the concept you are talking about when you say "reality"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by RingoKid, posted 05-07-2004 2:50 AM RingoKid has not replied

  
RingoKid
Inactive Member


Message 182 of 200 (106464)
05-07-2004 8:36 PM


JT
My "reality" is my surroundings, work environment, family, culture, language, codes of conduct...etc and the truth I hold is what i know to be able to survive and interact within that. That's what's real to me...
...now your set of circumstances within which you define your existence may be totally different and your truth if you hold fast to it might not ensure your survival in my reality
use the yanomamo as an example again...

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by jt, posted 05-07-2004 8:57 PM RingoKid has not replied

  
jt
Member (Idle past 5596 days)
Posts: 239
From: Upper Portion, Left Coast, United States
Joined: 04-26-2004


Message 183 of 200 (106469)
05-07-2004 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by RingoKid
05-07-2004 8:36 PM


Re: JT
Your definition is the same as the dictionary definition of surroundings, except with a little more detail. "the circumstances, conditions, or objects by which one is surrounded is how m-w online defines surroundings.
and your truth if you hold fast to it might not ensure your survival in my reality
You need to use a dictionary more.
"Truth" is defined as "the body of real things, events, and facts, and I already gave the definition for reality. There is not a varying truth; truth is the facts and things that are real. I do not have a different truth than you, you do not have a different reality than me.
What do you mean by survival? Would I die if my consciousness was put in your body and I had to deal with your "reality"?
You are using all the wrong words to say what you mean. It is as if you are using words as analogies or something.
I'm sure you have good, significant things to say, you just need to figure out the right words to say them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by RingoKid, posted 05-07-2004 8:36 PM RingoKid has not replied

  
RingoKid
Inactive Member


Message 184 of 200 (106512)
05-08-2004 12:47 AM


quibbling over semantics and for what purpose ???
I have my truth and what is real to me in my world...it's different to what you believe and what's real to you
respect the difference instead of trying to change others to fit your definitions....
...and thanx for the advice but I think I'll stick to my own meaning of truth and reality they make more sense
BTW would you die in my reality ???...maybe it depends what your truth is..ie what you believe
Do american soldiers believe the same as what iraqi terrorists believe ???...NO
Is the reality of iraqi life different to that experienced by american soldiers ???...YES
Are they dying ???...YES
and all this for what ???
Is their GOD the same ???...YES
Can you successfully convince iraqis of the truth that american style democracy is better for them ???...I doubt it
Maybe they'd be better of all sitting round reading the dictionary instead...

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by sidelined, posted 05-08-2004 1:11 AM RingoKid has not replied
 Message 187 by jt, posted 05-08-2004 1:47 PM RingoKid has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 185 of 200 (106517)
05-08-2004 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by RingoKid
05-08-2004 12:47 AM


RingoKid
I have my truth and what is real to me in my world
I hope what you are saying here is not that you are subject to different natural laws from the rest of the universe as that is an absursd position to take. Do you mean you create your own reality and,if so,what does that mean?

"We cannot define anything precisely! If we attempt to, we get into that paralysis of thought that comes to philosophers, who sit opposite each other, one saying to the other, 'You don't know what you are talking about!' The second one says 'What do you mean by know? What do you mean by talking? What do you mean by you?', and so on."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by RingoKid, posted 05-08-2004 12:47 AM RingoKid has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Melchior, posted 05-08-2004 12:01 PM sidelined has replied

  
Melchior
Inactive Member


Message 186 of 200 (106590)
05-08-2004 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by sidelined
05-08-2004 1:11 AM


I think what he means is that while things such as natural laws affect us all the same, a very large part of our lives as individuals is that we have different views on what is important, how to relate to the world around us, and how to relate to other people.
It isn't so much that reality is different, but that our perception of it is definitely subjective. And in many field (not much in science, but much in politics, for example) our subjective view is what makes us function as humans.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by sidelined, posted 05-08-2004 1:11 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by sidelined, posted 05-09-2004 12:26 AM Melchior has not replied

  
jt
Member (Idle past 5596 days)
Posts: 239
From: Upper Portion, Left Coast, United States
Joined: 04-26-2004


Message 187 of 200 (106610)
05-08-2004 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by RingoKid
05-08-2004 12:47 AM


quibbling over semantics and for what purpose ???
Because your meaning wasn't clear. The way you were using the words didn't make sense. Your opinions would have a much greater affect on people if they could understand better what you were saying.
It appears that I've annoyed you, for which I apologize. I am not trying to invalidate your opinions on basis of semantics. I'm just trying to understand you opinions, and help you make your opinions more understandable for everbody else, too.

Benoit Mandelbrot is not a type of wine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by RingoKid, posted 05-08-2004 12:47 AM RingoKid has not replied

  
RingoKid
Inactive Member


Message 188 of 200 (106700)
05-08-2004 10:15 PM


yeah sorry bout that JT, I just hate it when words on the screen tell me I need to do something...
"Lastly never think you know the absolute truth or the ultimate reality because your personal perception of truth and reality will only ever be your opinion..."
or to put it another way...what Melchior said
It doesn't matter what we believe or what we think is real because we as individuals will never get consensus as only God knows what the absolute truth and the ultimate reality are...
...I don't mean we create our own reality I mean we define what is real to us based on our personal beliefs. God created the universe we are trying to define it
but anyway I don't see the point in arguing, fighting or warring over personal beliefs...
To me it all reduces down to " the golden rule"
Versions of the Golden Rule in dozens of religions and other sources of which you could argue "tit for tat" is also an example
and the "universal law of karma"
http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/...
{Shortened display form of URL, to restore page width to normal - Adminnemooseus}
which dictates your rewards in the grand scheme of things according to how you practise the rule...
...and they all revolve around free will
<<(edited to fix broken link)>>
This message has been edited by RingoKid, 05-09-2004 07:38 AM
This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 05-10-2004 12:22 AM

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 189 of 200 (106714)
05-09-2004 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Melchior
05-08-2004 12:01 PM


Melchior
It isn't so much that reality is different, but that our perception of it is definitely subjective.
I disagree. I would say our perceptions are the same barring any inherent faults in the senses themselves.{colorblindness,deafness etc.} I would even go so far as to say that the wiring of the brain is mostly the same. Our interpretation of or what meaning we assign to information provided by our brain and sense organs are varied but they must also follow some level of the same pattern or else it would seem to me that we would be incapable of interaction or agree ment and even disagreement.

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RingoKid
Inactive Member


Message 190 of 200 (106747)
05-09-2004 8:25 AM


sidelined
Have you interacted with anybody from a radically different culture regarding their personal beliefs and perceptions of reality...
someone like an Australian aborigine or an Amazonian indian... do you know what they believe to be real ???
...or is your opinion of a personal and subjective nature that requires no proof as it is purely your own perception that matters ???

  
rstrats
Member (Idle past 103 days)
Posts: 138
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 191 of 200 (106810)
05-09-2004 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Unseul
05-05-2004 10:06 PM


Unseul,
re: I could do with a bit more proof about the leprechauns...But I still choose whether or not it is sufficient proof.
How do you know when you have enough evidence/proof? What is the indicator that would allow you to say: Okay, I have obtained all the information that I need about 'X' and while I still do not believe that 'X' exists, I am going to CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that 'X' exists and - poof - I now believe that 'X' exists"?
-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Unseul, posted 05-05-2004 10:06 PM Unseul has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by RingoKid, posted 05-09-2004 6:16 PM rstrats has replied
 Message 193 by Unseul, posted 05-09-2004 7:15 PM rstrats has replied

  
RingoKid
Inactive Member


Message 192 of 200 (106826)
05-09-2004 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by rstrats
05-09-2004 3:07 PM


I know it was directed at Unseul but perhaps this might help rstrats...
quote:
faith in your abilities and trust in the process by which you arrived at your truth becomes paramount in being able to speak with confidence about the reality of leprachauns existing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by rstrats, posted 05-09-2004 3:07 PM rstrats has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by rstrats, posted 05-10-2004 7:57 AM RingoKid has not replied

  
Unseul
Inactive Member


Message 193 of 200 (106843)
05-09-2004 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by rstrats
05-09-2004 3:07 PM


What he said
When you feel there is enough, there is enough. If you don't either keep looking or drop it.
Unseul

Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by rstrats, posted 05-09-2004 3:07 PM rstrats has replied

Replies to this message:
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One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 6156 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 194 of 200 (106956)
05-10-2004 12:51 AM


Left the building
Is it just me, or has Crashfrog been long out of this thread?

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Darwin Storm, posted 05-10-2004 1:18 AM One_Charred_Wing has not replied

  
Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 195 of 200 (106973)
05-10-2004 1:18 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by One_Charred_Wing
05-10-2004 12:51 AM


Re: Left the building
Well, it has drifted a bit off topic, which was why was Crash an unbeliever. If crash felt he answered that question, there isnt much point in continuing this particular thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by One_Charred_Wing, posted 05-10-2004 12:51 AM One_Charred_Wing has not replied

  
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