What makes you unbelieve Crash ?

1)accept nothing as fact
2)question everything
3)determine your own truth
4)define your own realityIt's an ongoing process whereby you constantly evaluate data, assimilate it into your perspective and build upon a foundation of previously accumulated and assimilated data...as an example, take leprachauns1)don't accept their existence as fact or fiction just because somebody said it's true or false2)question the validity of their existence by researching, studying, comparing, analyzing, look for answers everywhere and anywhere and not just to prove it but also to disprove it3)based on what you have learnt determine what you believe to be the truth about leprachauns4)the knowledge you now have puts you in the position of being able to define a reality that allows for the existence or not of leprachaunsIf someone else comes up with more data concerning leprachauns assimilate it into your knowledge data base and adjust your truth if neccessary then re define your realityYour truth may differ from somebody elses so here is where faith in your abilities and trust in the process by which you arrived at your truth becomes paramount in being able to speak with confidence about the reality of leprachauns existingas an exercise substitute leprachauns for let's say...GodLastly never think you know the absolute truth or the ultimate reality because your personal perception of truth and reality will only ever be your opinion...this is why a lot of "teachers of truth" failDescartes thought he had arrived at the fundamental truth by stating "I think therefore I am" I think I have improved upon it by sayingI think, I feel , I know, I am right......you may think otherwise so if you think I am wrong then the onus is on you to prove it and I will gladly recantnothing is perfect...

Sorry, mike, I did a big reply a couple of days ago that got lost as I tried to post because I didn't realize my dial up kad booted me off the line. I'll attempt another reply now.

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I am firm in my beliefs, - yes. But I don't understand why that should make me arrogant. I don't have a lock on the truth - I just am persuaded that I know it and that you can also know it.

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If it is true that you are merely persuaded of your beliefs, I have no problem with that. We are all persuaded of our beliefs. That's what it means to have a belief.However, If you believe you are right, AND you think everyone else is wrong AND, most importantly, there is nothing that could possibly persuade you otherwise, then that is arrogant.This is not personal, and it doesn't have to be a faith-type belief, either that is held arrogantly.Remember, I am talking about lack of doubt being arrogant, not religious belief.

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And all I done is take the contra-positive from that. People who do become suicide bombers are without doubt

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But that doesn't logically mean that all believers without doubt will become suicide bombers.

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Exactly.That's why I said what I did about suicide bombers when you said that doubt was of no use to you.Doubt is very good for preventing some extreme behaviors.

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My faith and belief is from Christ - I believe in him and his teachings above all things, therefore I would never seek to take a life. So - maybe I am not your enemy, maybe those who don't believe in Christ but in other things are your enemy. Yet here you are, making me your enemy yet I do not endanger you.

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There are plenty of undoubting believers in Christ who endanger me, and who have endangered and killed many over the centuries.

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And here we have a biblical section for people to attack my God - like our faith is the enemy, it's almost as if we get the blame for those events rather than the necessary partakers of different beliefs.

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I am not attacking your God.I am attacking lack of doubt.

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- Did those bombers believe in Christ?

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As a great prophet of God, yes, they did believe in Christ and many of his teachings.Do the members of the Christian group who distributed a "hit list" of abortion providers believe in Christ, when the "nurenburg" website mentioned below used to be found at "christaingallery.com"?Page not found – National Organization for Women

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I don't have religion or correctness. I am a believer who has a faith and cannot boast. Boasting is without effect. No-one can now boast. Read Romans. I am wrong about many things - even about some biblical things, sometimes I am indeed wrong, and have not interpreted correctly. I am fallible.

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Good. That means that you at least have some doubt, which is not what you indicated before.

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I said your theory is an obsession to people - not scientists. Many here try to have a solely scientific outlook, concerning the ToE. Others have an evolution philosophy, Unseul is a good example of someone who asks evolution for an answer to almost everything.

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So what?Why do you care if people have a different, non-supernatural philosophy?You mistake a lively curiosity and a desire to figure out the mysteries of nature as some kind of threat or rejection to your faith or God.

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"Man believes in God - let's see what evolution has to say about it......Evolution says it is necessary - so that we conquer our death-anxiety,..."

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My answer would be - "Stick to the how and I'll stick to the why."

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Again, why do you care if someone's intellectual curiosity leads them to investigate this issue scientifically?Surely your faith isn't dependent upon us not being allowed to understand certain phenomena, is it?

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I am saying all those who worship the creature are predicted in the bible, and avoiding the truth won't save you from this fact. People have warped their worldviews so that evolution gives them an answer to everything.

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See, this is the kind of statement that makes me think of arrogance.What if someone said the following to you:"People have warped their worldviews so that JESUS gives them an answer to everything."Wouldn't that strike you as kind of insulting and arrogant?

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because we hold true to our belief in God and the things that are said in the bible - you attack us instead. And for what? - Because we come to a different conclusion about evidences - big deal.

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I am attacking LACK OF DOUBT, not your belief.

Sorry Schraf, pedantic point, but worth knowing: Actually, they (911 bombers) believed in ALL of Christ's teachings. (They just think that Christians have a fatally corrupted version of what those teachings actually were, and that they knew the REAL teachings).Only further illustrates your point really.PE

RingoKid, I am not sure if you mean that your perception of the truth migh be different than somebody elses, but the actual truth does not change whether you believe it or not.Take leprachauns, for example. Say my uncle Ted believes they exist, and my aunt Sue believes that they don't exist. Are they both right?No, one of them is wrong. We don't know which one is wrong (although I have my opinion ), but that doesn't mean they are both right.

Actually - you know very well what I mean. I mean do they believe in Christ as the son of God. Are you saying all Muslim extremists are christian? Oh boy - that really is desperate and is offensive aswell. It proves my point that you probably blame christians for 9.11. Now that truly is a bit of one-sided hogwash posting from you egg.By this logic, even every Muslim is christian. And they all believe Christ is the son of God, I expect them to pull down their Muslim churches shortly.I have faith in Christ as the Messiah. If you are saying that these extremists are christians because, quote: "Actually, they (911 bombers) believed in ALL of Christ's teachings." Then that is the most ludicrous statement I've ever heard. What? Did they just forget those teachings Christ said about "loving your enemy" when they crashed the planes? Or maybe "even if you get angry with your brother then you are in danger of the commandment". What - they adhere to these teachings? - Oh yeah, they must of had a head full of quotes from Christ.(sarcasm)I suppose if they believe in Christ's teachings, they also adhere to the resurrection? Don't insult my intelligence.Oh dear, the true motives of the individuals here are coming nicely into focus. I'll respond to you later Schraff. Meanwhile I'll have to leave the forum, in total shock and disbelief of what I have just read.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 05-06-2004 03:10 PM

Christian or Muslim.Just as Hitler and the Nazis misused Christianity to justify their horrific acts, the 9-11 terrorists misused the teachings of the Koran to justify theirs.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I agree that Muslims are not, obviously, Christians. They don't believe in his divinity. You seem to suggest that the reason is that they don't follow his teachings.I believe that at sometimes a slight majority of the US population has approved of attacking Iraq (and for sure, I think, for Afghanistan).Therefore, you are telling me that the US is either made up of a majority of non-Christians or at least a very significant near majority. Right?This message has been edited by NosyNed, 05-06-2004 03:56 PM

Well. It's only the extremists (terrorists) that don't follow his teachings. I am not going to judge muslims, as most of them probably have followed Christ's teachings. In fact you have probably followed them more than those terrorists.As for the U.S - I don't have a judgement on that. I just think it is an insult to the memory of those who died in the twin towers (many who would have adhered to Christ's teachings and confessed him as being Messiah), --> an insult, - to say that those terrorists were believers and christians, and believers of Christ's teachings. Anyone with an ounce of common sense, can see what a silly and insulting suggestion that is. I agree with Jar for once aswell - concerning "mis-use" atleast, anyway.I guess it's the implication that they are followers of Christ - that upsets me most. I can't help that.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 05-06-2004 07:06 PM

Oh...I thought you had let go because of my post. Tee hee hee. Suicide bomber = No doubter. That doesn't mean no doubter = suicide bomber. That's the converse.Therefore, you must understand that logically, a suicide bomber has no relevance to my lack of doubt. Many will claim to know Christ, and he will say, "I never knew you". Also, their failure bares no relevance to my undoubting. Lack of doubt is infact surety of something. I don't doubt you exist Schraff - are you attacking me for that? Again, what is logically relevant is that one meets the standard of those teachings. "Love your enemy" must have slipped their minds when boarding the plane -(sarcasm). Also, what I mean is that - do they believe in Christ as the son of God, like I do.As for those who had a "hit list". Surely you must know my answer to this by now? Do you know what dictionary.com describes as a christian? This is a simple logical deduction - that one should meet the definition. If you say to me, "Jack the ripper was christian". At best I will laugh, because it bares no logical sense whatsoever. It's the same as saying "A murderer was a non-murderer". The definition of christian says such things as "pleasant person", or even, "one who follows Christ and his teachings" --> Which just happen to say don't murder or even get angry with someone. Yes. I have doubt - in myself, and rightly so. But I don't have doubt in God. I just think it is a dangerous combination. If you say the ToE says nothing of God and then say the evolution philosophy says he's made up then just exactly what are you saying. If anything, you are going to increase creationism and doubt. satan is very clever, only he could make it so that a selfish thing becomes unselfish and an unselfish thing becomes selfish. But Christ does give an answer to everything, one scientific theory doesn't. I can make my own evolution philosophy and make evolution say anything I want it to say.

yes, in their minds they are both right but it doesn't matter what they think only what you know, your truth, ie... what you believe is only relative to you and your reality...

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Lastly never think you know the absolute truth or the ultimate reality because your personal perception of truth and reality will only ever be your opinion...this is why a lot of "teachers of truth" fail

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as an example the yanomamo of amazonia believe in a different truth and live in a reality far removed from yours yet it is no less valid than yours but beyond theirs and your truth and reality exists the absolute and the ultimate of which we are still questing for...

Soz Mike - I still stand by what I said.I'm absolutely certain that if you were to speak to one of the 911 hijackers they would say that they loved Christ as much, if not more than Christians do. I know that must rankle with you, but I don't think this can be denied.I've no doubt that they could have come up with some concoction of scripture and authority to suggest that Jesus sanctioned fighting in self-defence and 911 was an act of self-defence. This is standard fundie logic.Take a look at this for example: No offence, but Muslims love Jesus as much as Christians doAnd let's not forget that there are many self-professed Christians out there who don't go around loving their enemy. You know how these religious types will make anything fit into their pre-conceived worldview.To answer your points directly: Only if a Christian is defined as a "follower of Christ". All Muslims by definition are followers of Christ. As they are of Moses and David and Abraham etcI wouldn't call any muslims "christians" though, as christians further believe in Christ's divinity. So the answer to your question is "no".Incidentally Mike, did you know that Muslims believe that Christ, not Muhammed, will be sent down to Earth for the second coming? I missed this point of yours, and I don't blame Christians for 9.11. Not even secretly. I've no idea where you got this from. Red mist? No. No muslim believes that Christ is the Son of God. They all follow Christ though...Muslims do not believe Christ ever taught that he was the Son of God. They believe the Christians have got this part wrong.Honestly Mike, I thought coming from Coventry you'd know a lot more about Islam by now. Well I could say the same about Crusaders, or anyone else who has used religion as a pretext for doing something abominable. There are many who will claim to follow Christ or Muhammed or Moses or whoever and still commit atrocities in their' name.Its all in the interpretation as you well know. They just have a different view of what the actual teachings were.Don't expect me to justify what Muslims believe - you're better off asking a muslim for that. I'm just telling you what muslims believe and clearing up the popular misconception that muslims only follow some of Christ's teachings.In the eyes of a muslim, they are following ALL of Christ's teachings. That was my point - nothing more. Can you tell me what my true motives are here please? I'd love to know.PEOT: Who painted your avatar? I've sure I've seen it for real somewhere, but I can't quite place where.

Mike, your really going to town with the whole evolution philosophy thing now. Evolution is random mutation with natural selection ( i know theres more niggly points but its close enough for now). Physical things are not the only thing that adapt, innate behaviours do as well. Now evolution can explain several behaviour, such as cats chasing objects/mice, even with no previous experience of this (such as watching their mother).My opinion on how god arose is not really too much to do with evolution, accept for the fact that we look for a leader figure, then psychology can quite easily come in to give us a replacement.As i have said evolution can explain many behaviours (i know some behaviours are also learnt through life) as well as physical traits. I dont try and use evolution to answer everything, but it generally does a damn good job of the living world (animals, plants, fungi, bacteria, archebacteria). I do not even pretend that it can answer anything in the realms of physics or chemistry etc etcUnseul

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Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....

Sorry P'Egg. I was too harsh on you, but you are right - I seen red mist because this topic is frustrating. You will find me posting all over the shop concerning the definition of christian. You are right when you say; This is my whole point. You are right to accuse crusaders, if they have failed in being christian. My point is, that many people really do follow what Christ says do. Many in the Twin Towers would have been peaceful. "Blessed are the peacemakers - for they shall be called the children of God". And many would have adhered and remembered Christ's words, and DONE them. You are right - people use religion, which means they fail to recieve the message of the religion they use. It's a none-logical statement though PE. Also - I said muslim extremists - not muslims. The fact is ALL of Christ's teachings includes "love your enemy". Even if the extremists recognize scriptures to mean something else to a christians view, they cannot avoid the teachings about peace, which can only be taken as teachings of peace. Also, you fail to see my point. I am not saying muslims don't follow the teachings - that's a strawman, I am saying (and also clarified it to Ned) --> that muslim extremists (terrorists) are not believers in christ or followers or adherents to his words. He that doesn't believe - "the wrath of God abideth on him". It is clear that you must believe in Christ being the son of God, - IN THE SCRIPTURES. He is the "way" the "truth" -- the atonement. It doesn't matter if a muslim has a different view about my faith. It would be an insult if I said to them, "your Koran doesn't say that". The fact is you cannot escape the clear and precise scriptures in the NT that deal with the "only begotten son of God". Sorry PE, but the teachings are there, it's as simple as that. As surely as you say "evolution happened" - the teachings are there.The avatar is Michaelangelo Caravagio's painting, showing Thomas's belief after seeing. - Very realistic and natural painting, - excellent master of painting!

Well, I can't disagree with you that most right-minded people think religious extremists to be insane (else they wouldn't be extremists). Not in the way that you or I would understand Jesus's teachings, no. But in their own warped little minds they've found some way to marry Jesus's teachings about peace with their own beliefs about jihad. It would be impossible for them to remain Muslim and reject what they see as the teachings of Jesus. I've no idea how they've done this, and I don't really care, to be honest (if you're interested, I suggest you read one of Osama Bin Laden's sermons).You say the Crusaders went against the teachings of Christ, but if you spoke to a Crusader, I bet they'd come up with some weird and wonderful apologetics about how Crusading and pillaging is exactly in accordance with the teachings of Christ which the likes of us would find nauseating.The point is that both Muslims and Christians both agree that they should listen to whatever it was that Jesus had said. They disagree on what the actual message of what it was that he said, and this applies to extremists as much as it applies to moderates. OK, I think I see what you're getting at. When I say "teachings", I'm talking about something that is disputed between Muslims and Christians. Muslims believe that Christ never called himself the Son of God, for example. Christians believe that he did.When you use "teachings" you're using Christian scripture only, of which you have no (or little) doubt. That's fair enough, but you have to remember that there are at least 1 billion people on this planet who disagree with you. This doesn't mean you're wrong, after all, there are even more Christians than Muslims, but it does at least expose the fact that there is some genuine controversy as to what the teachings actually were.Remember, a muslim thinks that the Bible is corrupted and cannot be trusted. Scripture in this sense means nothing to a muslim, rather they would trust what is written about Jesus in the Quran and the Hadith. Note that as far as I can make out, this is overwhelmingly positive, and supports a peaceful loving Jesus, but it never fails to amaze me how religious fundies can completely contort the meaning of something pretty clear and turn it to suit their manaical agenda.When the Bible says "Jesus said....." a muslim extremist would probably say it was fake and added later. Sad to say, that even the 911 bombers would have had to have been able to reconcile a belief in the teachings of Christ with the callous premeditated murder of civilians.And they do this without even considering the possibility that they might be wrong. Religious fervour + intolerance is a very nasty mixture indeed.What I was saying was a very minor matter indeed - Muslims and Christians would both say that they followed ALL of Christ's teachings (even Muslim and Christian extremists). They would disagree as to what those teachings were and how to interpret them.PE edit: fixed tenses "would have had to have been" ugh!This message has been edited by Primordial Egg, 05-07-2004 09:27 AM

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- Yellow = doer of Christ's words. A "christian" or "muslim" extremist is logically only an extremist, not infact - a muslim or a christian, but an abuser of those faiths. I think we could probably both see that fact. In the case of 9.11. they claimed "Allah and the muslim religion". I have not read the Koran - but I am guessing that most muslims, "follower of Koran and Allah" condemned those events.Fair enough. It's just that people sometimes say strange and frustrating things to me, like, "Look what christianity has done". In other words - they neglect logic. You see, I am christian(I hope), and I have not partaken in any of those things. (terrorism, rapes, killings etc.). I agree. Though I cannot be sure that crusaders went against the teachings of Christ. I must say "if" they went against them, because I'd rather not judge past events - of which I have little or no knowledge of. My interest you see, is independent of these events. My interest is Christ's words, hence my head full of quotes. If those people killed and done dispicable (not discipleable ) things, then ofcourse they will also be judged by God.It is ofcourse, important to remember - 9.11. was probably done in Allah's name - by the necessary murderers. I am not saying that Allah says to do such things, but even if they are "muslim" extremists, then they obviously "use" the muslim religion mostly - for their sickening deeds. They are logically - extremists who "use" the muslim religion.Yet it is the implications by you and Schraff that upset and frustrate me, you seem to think those terrorists are somehow related to christians, or even muslims.Now leave me alone.