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Author Topic:   Why does God need to be worshipped?
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3237 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 46 of 64 (467713)
05-23-2008 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by ICANT
05-23-2008 1:18 PM


Re: Experience?
Where do you get the idea from that it is God's obligation to convince you of anything, must less His existence.
I was replying to Iano who said it was God's job to convince me. He said that people believe because God has convinced them of his existance. If that's the case, then the reason I don't believe must be because God has not tried hard enough to convince me on purpose.
You don't like God's plan. Then reject it.
It's not that I dislike God's plan and reject anything. It's that I don't believe there is a plan because I don't believe there is a God. If that disbelief is enough to punish me, and God knew, even before I was born that I would not believe, is it really fair to punish ME, when he allowed me to exist solely to be punished.
God simply wants obedience, That is all He ever wanted.
Then why doesn't he ask for it in a way I will understand or see? It's like leaving a note for a blind person, asking them to clean up the apartment, then getting angry when they didn't follow the directions in the letter. It's not the blind person's fault if the information was left in such a way that they couldn't find it or understand it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by ICANT, posted 05-23-2008 1:18 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by ICANT, posted 05-23-2008 3:49 PM Perdition has replied

  
Grizz
Member (Idle past 5470 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 47 of 64 (467727)
05-23-2008 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Blue Jay
05-22-2008 12:52 AM


Re: Experience?
I portray myself here on EvC as a devout Mormon (and I generally am), but I inevitably have my own concerns about my religion (including many of the ones you've brought up here), which often puts me at odds with my fellow Mormons and makes my mother condemn my actions sometimes.
I can definitely relate. It can be difficult to relate to family members on the subject of religion if you come from a Conservative background and hold any views that fall outside the norm. In my case, I come from a very conservative Catholic family and also have a sister who converted to fundamentalism. She is the most vocal and is the most likely to give you an earful when bringing up the subject of religion. I find the best way to avoid conflict is to politely opt-out of discussions where conflict will likely arise. I also realize that beliefs are such an integral and important part of their lives that anything I would offer would not do anything but create arguments. I simply don't discuss religion with family members.
Personally, I never really found much meaning in religion, probably because I never connected with it emotionally. I could easily rationalize the existence of God as described to me by Catholicism, but the whole affair never meant much of anything to me on a personal level.
On this particular subject of worship:
Worship plays such a large role in any religious system because it is fundamental to maintaining the emotional attachment one has with the belief system and it also serves as a mean of social stability. Personal worship in the form of prayer or meditation is what keeps the individual connected to the sense of the divine but it is communal worship that I believe serves the purpose of ensuring the survival of the group. In my opinion, communal worship is necessary for survival in that it keeps people from straying too far from the fray -- the more one strays from the community, the more you are likely to start questioning the beliefs and the easier it becomes to reject them when confronted intellectually.
I think a religious believer is motivated to worship for the same reason a scientist is motivated to uncover the mysteries of the Universe. This is where I would refer to the Philosopher Hume's observation that "Reason has ever motivated a man to do anything." We are not really rational animals, we are animals who also possess the uncanny ability to reason. These two definitions may seem like the same thing but they are not. Like any animal, we are creatures of instinct, emotion, and desire. Every single one of our actions are motivated by one of these impulses; reason is simply the tool that helps us navigate our way around and helps make the choice that will ring about the most positive results.
It is the anxiety that comes with not knowing that creates curiosity. The resulting desire to understand is what motivates us to use our reason to solve the mysteries of our existence. As thinking beings contemplating the immensity of the universe and our apparent insignificant place in it, we also have the need to connect to something greater than ourselves and derive our meaning and purpose from it. A religious individual will fulfill this emotional desire inside a cathedral; a scientist will fulfill this desire by devoting their lives to uncovering the secrets of nature and finding fulfillment in contemplating what we often hear scientists describe as 'the harmony and beauty of the natural world'.
We need to keep in mind that, as children, we weren't given the option of what to believe or if to believe anything at all; we were forced to believe. Later on in life and in adulthood, for those who stick around, worship serves the purpose of reinforcement in the face of doubt. It is a time when everyone comes together and feeds off of the group dynamic. We see these displays, for example, at Christian worship services where participants singe praises and hymns with hands raised and bodies swaying. Someone is overcome with emotion and starts crying then everyone else joins in. I am not poking fun at anyone, I am just pointing out that worship can be a very emotional experience for many people of all faiths and the power of the experience translates to a reinforcement of the validity of the belief system.
The a-rational side to our existence is very much a part of what we are and is quite capable of overpowering our rational side. If we want to really have a stab at truth, we cannot appeal to our a-rational side. If we had our emotions and instincts removed from our constitution and used our reason to examine our phobias, insecurities, and beliefs and then looked at how these all influenced our actions and perceptions of the world, we might all have a collective chuckle. We might hear someone say, "I was so silly to be afraid of the dark" or, "I cant believe I actually concluded we were made of an immaterial and immortal soul that was somehow fused with our material bodies." We are not Mr Spock caricatures, however, nor should we want to be. What is life without the wonder and joy that comes from our emotions and desires? We just need to keep in mind that when we are seeking to address the profound questions most of us have on our minds, we should not be listening to our emotions and desires.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Blue Jay, posted 05-22-2008 12:52 AM Blue Jay has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by ICANT, posted 05-23-2008 4:58 PM Grizz has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 48 of 64 (467729)
05-23-2008 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Perdition
05-23-2008 1:54 PM


Re: Experience?
Perdition writes:
I don't believe there is a God.
Why is that God's problem?
Don't blame God. Blame your parents and their parents for not teaching you about God and living an example before you that would show you that there is a God.
While you are at it you can also blame Modern Religion. You can include the Churches. But you can't include Iano or myself with them.
Perdition writes:
Then why doesn't he ask for it in a way I will understand or see?
He gave a manual with all the instructions, but nobody reads the manual.
Many say but, the Bible God's manual is not to be believed. etc.
I taught a lesson Wednesday night where I compared verse for verse the King James Version Bible Isaiah chapter 53 with the Dead Sea Scrolls Isaiah 53. They say the same thing just a little different in some places, but the meaning is the same. The Dead Sea Scrolls were not found until 1947. So how do they match? The Dead Sea Scrolls are over 2000 years old.
Why does God need for you to believe in Him? He doesn't but He desires it.
Why does God need for you to worship Him? He doesn't but He desires it.
What would be the benefit to God? Nothing.
Many are seeking a sign or for God to convince them He exists. Jesus said there would be no sign. Other than Him being in the tomb 3 days and 3 nights.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Perdition, posted 05-23-2008 1:54 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Perdition, posted 05-23-2008 3:57 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3237 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 49 of 64 (467732)
05-23-2008 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by ICANT
05-23-2008 3:49 PM


Re: Experience?
Don't blame God. Blame your parents and their parents for not teaching you about God and living an example before you that would show you that there is a God.
While you are at it you can also blame Modern Religion. You can include the Churches. But you can't include Iano or myself with them.
I don't BLAME anybody, because I don't think it's a bad thing. I treasure the fact that my parents taught me to think for myself and think things through rather than accepting things that are told me without any evidence.
I certainly don't blame you or Iano.
He gave a manual with all the instructions, but nobody reads the manual.
That's my point. There is a book, written thousands of years ago for mostly illiterate desert nomads and shepherds. A book with bald assertions is not the type of evidence I would believe. This is the type of make-up I have. I ask for concrete proof, and there's nothing I can do about that. If God expects everyone to be convinced by the same thing, then he's a moron. If he leaves only that book as proof, then he's essentially saying that he doesn't want me to believe, because he knows a book will not convince me.
It is entirely plausible to say that God doesn't care. That he created the Universe and life and then turned a deaf ear and a blind eye. But that doesn't seem to be the type of God most Christians want.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by ICANT, posted 05-23-2008 3:49 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 50 of 64 (467734)
05-23-2008 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Grizz
05-23-2008 3:40 PM


Re: Emotional Worship
Grizz writes:
We see these displays, for example, at Christian worship services where participants singe praises and hymns with hands raised and bodies swaying. Someone is overcome with emotion and starts crying then everyone else joins in. I am not poking fun at anyone, I am just pointing out that worship can be a very emotional experience for many people of all faiths and the power of the experience translates to a reinforcement of the validity of the belief system.
Grizz such displays are nothing but emotional displays to show other's one's devotion to God. See how dedicated I am. See how Spiritual I am. Hey look at me I am a shinning example for God. That is what they are screaming.
I can't find in God's Word where He desires such shenanigans as worship. I do find where He desires obedience.
The Church was given a three fold mission by Jesus. People make up the Church.
They were told as you go through the world make disciples. (Believers are to live lives before their friends and neighbors that they can tell they have something they don't. That they may desire it.
When they are disciples, (believers) they are to be added to the Church by baptism.
Then it is the Church's responsibility to teach them the all things that Jesus commanded. These things were conveyed to us through the writers of the New Testament. These people had been taught daily for 3 1/2 years by Jesus. Except Paul who received special teaching.
Let me explain what our worship service is at the Church I pastor.
We meet on Sunday morning at 10 AM and have a 45 minute lesson. This is a prepared lesson that they have material they have studied during the week. They can ask questions and give comments on what is taught.
We have a 15 minute break between lesson and morning service.
We have 3 or 4 songs.
We talk about those on our prayer list. Add new people and Remove one's no longer requiring special prayer.
We talk about those of our membership that need special attention. We have several widows that are quite old. Many times we have work days at their houses.
If God has done something special for someone they can share it.
We take our weekly offering.
I present a 20 to 30 minute message from God's Word.
Sunday evening we meet at 6 PM.
We sing 3 songs.
Reports given if anything new.
I teach a 45 minute lesson from the Bible verse by verse. Book chosen by the membership.
Wednesday we meet at 7 PM.
We sing 4 short songs.
I teach a 30 minute lesson from the Bible. Usually one that has been requested by one of the members. Something they have a question about.
We then talk about problems among the membership that needs attention or prayer. We go over the prayer list.
We then split men in one room and women in another room for prayer. That way if there is special needs they can be talked about. Things that you would not want to talk about in a mixed group of men and women.
We meet at different times and go out on visitation.
We meet to help take care of needs of the membership.
We meet to take care of the Church and property.
These three can take place at any time.
Doing these things is what I call worship because in so doing I am being obedient to God.
Maybe I got it all wrong. But Jesus commanded me to love God above all else. He also commanded me to love my neighbor as myself. Through Paul He commanded me to take care of my brethren and sisters in Christ.
I truly love my neighbor as much as I do myself and that is why I tell everyone I can that Jesus loves them and died for them and if they will trust Him to give them eternal life they can receive a full free pardon from God.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Grizz, posted 05-23-2008 3:40 PM Grizz has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 51 of 64 (467741)
05-23-2008 8:36 PM


Hard to believe that this quote has not yet been posted:
    The most ridiculous concept ever perpetrated by H. sapiens is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of the Universes, wants the sacharrine adoration of his creations, that he can be persuaded by their prayers, and becomes petulant if he does not recieve this flattery. Yet this ridiculous notion, without one real shred of evidence to bolster it, has gone on to found one of the oldest, largest and least productive industries in history.
    Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love (1973)
ps. I love the "blockcolor" command!

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by pelican, posted 05-24-2008 9:30 PM Coyote has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 52 of 64 (467841)
05-24-2008 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by neilymac
05-19-2008 7:09 AM


worship
Worship : The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
Why do humans need to worship at all? Those who do worship others give their lives away, whether it be to god or oprah winfrey.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by neilymac, posted 05-19-2008 7:09 AM neilymac has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 53 of 64 (467842)
05-24-2008 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Coyote
05-23-2008 8:36 PM


The most ridiculous concept ever perpetrated by H. sapiens is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of the Universes, wants the sacharrine adoration of his creations, that he can be persuaded by their prayers, and becomes petulant if he does not recieve this flattery. Yet this ridiculous notion, without one real shred of evidence to bolster it, has gone on to found one of the oldest, largest and least productive industries in history.
Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love (1973)
HALLELUJAH !!!!!!!!!!111

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Coyote, posted 05-23-2008 8:36 PM Coyote has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 54 of 64 (467847)
05-24-2008 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Perdition
05-23-2008 9:34 AM


Re: Experience?
Perdition writes:
But God already knows whether I will "be convinced" or not. He knew before I was born, so if I go to my grave not being convinced, its because God knowingly did not do enough to convince me.
I work off a model of eternity which has God occupying all points in time - now. Our past, present and future are all now to God. We're the time-bound ones and talk in time-bound langauge decribing time-bound concepts. He's not time bound. Mixing up the units of time and eternity you get sentences like this.
God knows now whether you will be convinced in your future because he is there, at your future, with you, now. He can see, by plain old observation now, whether you will persist in your refusal to be convinced or whether you will relent and succumb to conviction.
He'll present enough evidence to convince you - but won't prevent you suppressing that evidence. In a general sense, suppressing evidence is something we do in order to remain unconvinced of something. Take this truth which we see operating in the world around us day in, day out:
quote:
It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” -Upton Sinclair.
The manner by which governments and business' and individuals ensure they get what they want, at times, is to suppress the evidence that would prevent that occuring. The nature of truth is to set free from lie. But if the lie is desirable then the truth must be surpressed.
And so it is in the specific. God presents evidence, you want something else and so the evidence is surpressed. In one way this is no bad thing. Suppression of evidence involves pressing it down, compressing it, shoving it down deep. But pressure builds up and Gods hope and plan is that the pressure of suppressed truth buried PLUS the accumulated shame and guilt resuling from actions following that suppression - will erupt in a massive explosion which results in our very being dying. Not our physical bodies necessarily - just our being.
-
It seems like he likes people who are easily convinced of something, and just lets the skeptical of "his creations" fall
If it was easy then he wouldn't have sent his son to suffer and die. I know of some who arrived without that much turmoil. I know others who went through the mill.
Skepticism isn't the thing which would have a man resist the work of conviction that God is engaged in. It's a mans pride and self-sufficiency and unwillingness to get off the throne he imagines himself to occupy.
A man can fool himself into thinking he's okay with his fine house, his beautiful wife and kids, the car, the job, the etc. And he can fool other people that he's a decent, upstanding citizen. Gods job is to use a mans sin to convince a man that there really is something rotten and sick inside him. At the core.
Man is born a slave to his pride and the battle rages between its refusal to accept anything that would have it play second fiddle - and Gods rightful place in a mans life.
Skepticism? Skepticism is like murder and stealing and queue-skipping, all mere lackeys of Pride. All sin serves pride ultimately. Take a look at your own sin and you'll see that that's the god being served.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Perdition, posted 05-23-2008 9:34 AM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Perdition, posted 05-25-2008 3:28 PM iano has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3237 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 55 of 64 (467916)
05-25-2008 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by iano
05-24-2008 9:53 PM


Re: Experience?
He'll present enough evidence to convince you - but won't prevent you suppressing that evidence. In a general sense, suppressing evidence is something we do in order to remain unconvinced of something.
That's my point. He DOESN'T give enough evidence to convince me. An old book, written 2000 years ago for mostly illiterate nomads and shepherds isn't convincing to me. There are many books written for many religions that claim many of the same things as the Bible. I treat each of them the same, because there is just as much evidence for all of them.
In fact, all the evidence I see seems to point the other way. The geologic column, physics, biology, genetics, cosmology, and chemistry. Even psychology and medicine. If God is presenting us with evidence, it seems to me that he's presenting us with far more evidence of his non-existence than of his existence. That would mean God, who gave me the mind and logical/observational capacity I have, is deliberately placing convincing evidence in front of me that contradicts his existence.
Our past, present and future are all now to God. We're the time-bound ones and talk in time-bound langauge decribing time-bound concepts. He's not time bound. Mixing up the units of time and eternity you get sentences like this.
God knows now whether you will be convinced in your future because he is there, at your future, with you, now.
Again, he's seeing exactly how convinced I will be by his book. He knows "now" if that is evidence that would convince someone with the mental make-up I have. He knows it won't, and yet he does nothing to try and convince me. He's throwing in the towel and saying, "That book wasn't enough, I'm not willing to do any more than that, so I guess he's just screwed."
But pressure builds up and Gods hope and plan is that the pressure of suppressed truth buried PLUS the accumulated shame and guilt resuling from actions following that suppression - will erupt in a massive explosion which results in our very being dying. Not our physical bodies necessarily - just our being.
The funny thing is, it's the "saved" people who seem to feel this shame. I don't subscribe to an outdated and illogical moral theory. Many of the things in the Bible do agree with my morality, and those things I follow. I don't lie, or steal, or cheat. I treat people as I would want to be treated myself. I think I'm a good person, and feel absolutely no shame for my character. I don't think I'm a loathsome piece of shit that can't make any good choices without relying on an invisibly Daddy figure to tell me right from wrong. I feel bad that you consider yourself to be so horrible that you need to be saved from yourself.
Skepticism? Skepticism is like murder and stealing and queue-skipping, all mere lackeys of Pride. All sin serves pride ultimately. Take a look at your own sin and you'll see that that's the god being served.
Skepticism is what allows us to see through bullshitters and people who would do the things we both believe are immoral. The liars, the cheaters and the stealers. If I weren't skeptical, I'd be taken in by all the con-men in the world, unable to make decisions in my own best interest. Skepticism is healthy and necessary. You, yourself, have a lot of healthy skepticism. You're skeptical of the Greek and Roman myths. You're skeptical of that 3 am infomercial trying to sell you a knife that can cut through your sneakers.
A man can fool himself into thinking he's okay with his fine house, his beautiful wife and kids, the car, the job, the etc. And he can fool other people that he's a decent, upstanding citizen. Gods job is to use a mans sin to convince a man that there really is something rotten and sick inside him. At the core.
Again, I feel sorry that you see yourself in such a bad light.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by iano, posted 05-24-2008 9:53 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by iano, posted 05-25-2008 8:19 PM Perdition has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 56 of 64 (467940)
05-25-2008 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Perdition
05-25-2008 3:28 PM


Re: Experience?
Perdition writes:
That's my point. He DOESN'T give enough evidence to convince me. An old book, written 2000 years ago for mostly illiterate nomads and shepherds isn't convincing to me.
I'm not sure it was intended to be convincing - in the sense of a person being 'converted' by reading the Bible through cover to cover. God knows, it took our Bible study 2 and a half years of Tuesday evenings to skim, and I say skim, through the gospel of John
Perhaps some could get a ways in without nodding off. But they'd be few and far between in my view.
Nope. The evidence comes at you obliquely, stealthily, fairly well unbeknownst to you. For it's not primarily a head-gig. If those I have witnessed coming to faith are anything to go by (and I include myself in this) then you'll either have a Damascus road like experience (Saul could be said to have been downright antagonistic to Christianity right up to that point). Or it will be a gradual affair where you look back and realise that you've become a Christian at some point but can't remember exactly at what point you crossed the line.
It doesn't matter much which it is.
In fact, all the evidence I see seems to point the other way. The geologic column, physics, biology, genetics, cosmology, and chemistry. Even psychology and medicine. If God is presenting us with evidence, it seems to me that he's presenting us with far more evidence of his non-existence than of his existence. That would mean God, who gave me the mind and logical/observational capacity I have, is deliberately placing convincing evidence in front of me that contradicts his existence.
There's a lot of Christian cosmologists, evolutionists, geneticists, geologists. My fiance is a Christian psychologist in training. The one apparently doesn't exclude the other.
Read up on the fathers of modern science: Newton, Kepler, Morse, Faraday, Watt, Joule, Boyle etc. It was their conviction that the world was the product of an ordered and logical mind that got them thinking that the way to investigate it was to apply order and logic. Alchemy became chemistry as a result.
Christians the lot of 'em.
-
The funny thing is, it's the "saved" people who seem to feel this shame. I don't subscribe to an outdated and illogical moral theory. Many of the things in the Bible do agree with my morality, and those things I follow. I don't lie, or steal, or cheat. I treat people as I would want to be treated myself. I think I'm a good person, and feel absolutely no shame for my character. I don't think I'm a loathsome piece of shit that can't make any good choices without relying on an invisibly Daddy figure to tell me right from wrong. I feel bad that you consider yourself to be so horrible that you need to be saved from yourself.
The sense of conviction of sin is something that (hopefully) builds up, causes (hopefully) an explosion resulting in your certain salvation. Thereafter you have no right to feel guilty and ashamed - although habits (and satan) die hard. To feel shame and guilt as a Christian is to say Christs sacrifice wasn't enough. The Christian has no right to wallow in guilt and shame. He needs to get on his knees and face his father.
You might be mistaking Christianity for Christian Religiousity. The two share a name. But a name only.
-
Skepticism is what allows us to see through bullshitters and people who would do the things we both believe are immoral. The liars, the cheaters and the stealers. If I weren't skeptical, I'd be taken in by all the con-men in the world, unable to make decisions in my own best interest. Skepticism is healthy and necessary. You, yourself, have a lot of healthy skepticism. You're skeptical of the Greek and Roman myths. You're skeptical of that 3 am infomercial trying to sell you a knife that can cut through your sneakers.
It has it's uses in that regard. I meant it in regard to it's serving pride.
Gods job is to use a mans sin to convince a man that there really is something rotten and sick inside him. At the core.
Again, I feel sorry that you see yourself in such a bad light.
Not see. Saw. Don't feel sorry, it brought me to my knees and God killed me off and bore me again. Me now is kind of different. It can't be helped that it has to occur this way, your relative notions of morality are well and good as far as they go. But if God says your relative is actually rotten then it is.
He said "let there be light and there was light". If what he says carries that kind of weight then it wouldn't be wise to cling all too hard your relative notions. Relative can be so many soap bubbles when faced with the absolute. No matter how concrete that soap appears at this moment.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Perdition, posted 05-25-2008 3:28 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Perdition, posted 05-25-2008 9:18 PM iano has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3237 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 57 of 64 (467943)
05-25-2008 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by iano
05-25-2008 8:19 PM


Re: Experience?
Nope. The evidence comes at you obliquely, stealthily, fairly well unbeknownst to you. For it's not primarily a head-gig. If those I have witnessed coming to faith are anything to go by (and I include myself in this) then you'll either have a Damascus road like experience (Saul could be said to have been downright antagonistic to Christianity right up to that point). Or it will be a gradual affair where you look back and realise that you've become a Christian at some point but can't remember exactly at what point you crossed the line.
Then we're back to the point that God hasn't seen fit to give me a "Damascus road like experience." And as for graduality, I used to be a Christian, in the sense that I believed in God and Jesus and even went to church occasionally. As I got older and began to reevaluate everything I had just assumed to be true, I realized that I really no longer believed, I was just "going through the motions." It was, like I see in a lot of "Christians," believing "just in case." I realized that that kind of belief wouldn't fool a God as all-knowing as the God I had believed in, so it was a pointless exercise. God just doesn't make sense to me. It seems highly unlikely and illogical for there to be a being who would give us our ability to reason and tease out the secrets of the world, and then ask us to abandon that reason when it comes to him.
There's a lot of Christian cosmologists, evolutionists, geneticists, geologists. My fiance is a Christian psychologist in training. The one apparently doesn't exclude the other.
Read up on the fathers of modern science: Newton, Kepler, Morse, Faraday, Watt, Joule, Boyle etc. It was their conviction that the world was the product of an ordered and logical mind that got them thinking that the way to investigate it was to apply order and logic. Alchemy became chemistry as a result.
Christians the lot of 'em.
You're right. I don't believe that religion and science are mutually exclusive. They deal in different realms. In that regard, I find it exceedingly funny that many Christians feel the need to "prove" their religion using science. IDists, Creation Scientists, etc are all playing a losing game. Faith is faith, if someone needs proof, it ceases to be faith, and if their faith is so shaky as to fall apart should anything in the Bible be shown to not be 100% literal, then they have very shaky faith indeed.
Were I to ever find myself back in the realm of the religious, I would only make it as far as a Deist. I would believe in a God who created the Big Bang, and then took a step back to watch the Universe unfold, needing no more influence on his part. But honestly, I don't even see myself making it there, because again, a supreme deity makes absolutely no sense to me.
The sense of conviction of sin is something that (hopefully) builds up, causes (hopefully) an explosion resulting in your certain salvation. Thereafter you have no right to feel guilty and ashamed - although habits (and satan) die hard. To feel shame and guilt as a Christian is to say Christs sacrifice wasn't enough. The Christian has no right to wallow in guilt and shame. He needs to get on his knees and face his father.
Again, I consider myself to be a very good person, whether I believe in a god or not. I make my mistakes and I have done some things I'm not proud of, but I don't think doing things like that sticks with me like some sort of oily residue. I rather view it as a learning experience, akin to falling off your bike. I see how it makes me feel and how it makes others feel, and I learn that I don't like being that type of person.
It (skepticism) has it's uses in that regard. I meant it in regard to it's serving pride.
I see it exactly the other way. I think it's pride to believe that I have found the "Truth" and that there is no way I could be wrong. I am skeptical about everything I believe. I try and reevaluate my beliefs on a regular basis and see if I have some new perspective that may change my mind. It was that reevaluation that caused me to realize that I wasn't a Christian. It was that type of reevaluation that lead me to give up my original goal of becoming a physicist and pursue philosophy instead, and it is that reevaluation that lead me to my current moral theory. I think skepticism is healthy and necessary if one truly wants to get as close to "truth" as possible, rather than accepting that you're there now and have no more need to pursue and honest search. Skepticism, to me, is the antithesis of pride.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by iano, posted 05-25-2008 8:19 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by iano, posted 05-26-2008 3:35 AM Perdition has not replied

  
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 58 of 64 (467960)
05-25-2008 11:36 PM


I see another point there, it's pre-destination.
I actually think that one may introduce the pre-destination concept into the discussion not to make thing clearer but to make the point more confusing. Remove the pre-destination introduced as noone actually understands what pre-destination is. So you are looping yourself into the unknown for your own confusion. That's my piece of advice.
Of course, if you are His sheep, you will in the end answer His call. While whatever in the end, it's your own choice. God will you, you choose to to accept or reject. In the end, it's your choice, no matter what is said about the concept of pre-destination.
God wants your worships and God wants your faith.
You are skeptical, but base on what you will justify that. Isn't that your rationale that you are using to do the justification? It's not something wrong to use your rationale. The point is, which is your preference? To build your reasoning on your faith or to build your faith on your reasoning. It's foretold that you may be doomed if you choose the latter approach.
You simply ate too much from the Tree of Knowledge that you rely fully on it to do your justification, and simply ignore the presence of the Tree of Life. And thus you may fail to find the Tree of Life and may die your second death. Is it the Tree of Knowledge a bad thing at all? Not necessary. It's your approach that might be the problem. I however choose to allow the co-existence of both Trees and thus build my reasoning on my faith but not vice versa.
Hope it helps.
Hidden meaning:
I don't beleive God unless I am persuaded by strong evidence (as judged by my rationale)
=
I don't want to give out faith, regarding to the topic of Christianity
While God said in the whole Bible:
God wants your faith, and you will be only be saved by faith.
To conclude, God says that we will be saved by faith but I just don't want to give out faith. So the ultimate question:
How can you be saved? A question decided and answered by only you yourself.
Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by iano, posted 05-26-2008 3:57 AM Hawkins has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 59 of 64 (467980)
05-26-2008 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Perdition
05-25-2008 9:18 PM


First believe the evidence then you'll get the evidence.
Perdition writes:
Then we're back to the point that God hasn't seen fit to give me a "Damascus road like experience." And as for graduality, I used to be a Christian, in the sense that I believed in God and Jesus and even went to church occasionally. As I got older and began to reevaluate everything I had just assumed to be true, I realized that I really no longer believed
This doesn't exclude gradualism. What seems to have been the case is you believed without evidence and because you believed that way you were prone to arriving at the conclusion you arrived at. Which is no bad thing. Better facing your unbelief than be an unbelieving believer.
Clearly you haven't met Gods criterion either for a Damascus road or a gradual-but-now-behind-me experience. Which is why he hasn't seen fit to issue forth. This would indicate that a) (from your perspective) God doesn't exist b) he hasn't managed to convince you of that which you need to be convinced of in order that his criterion in you be met.
It seems highly unlikely and illogical for there to be a being who would give us our ability to reason and tease out the secrets of the world, and then ask us to abandon that reason when it comes to him.
I agree. Unless God gives you some evidence as to his existance there is nothing to reason out and so nothing to abandon. You'd be completely in the dark.
You're right. I don't believe that religion and science are mutually exclusive. They deal in different realms. In that regard, I find it exceedingly funny that many Christians feel the need to "prove" their religion using science. IDists, Creation Scientists, etc are all playing a losing game.
I understand your view and I wouldn't engage in such pursuit myself - I believe that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation - not scientific argument. But there is no reason to suppose that science won't come up against limits beyond which it can't reach. If that were to occur at the end of all the radial spokes science travels out along, if the pursuit of knowledge terminated in mystery at all points, then the rim encircling us might get some to thinking of god. Which might well lead to God.
ID might not be so much aimed at proving God as it is aimed at indicating arrival at the end of a Knowledge spoke. In this case the spoke called biology. Perhaps ET-did-it is a fine conclusion for the the ID-ist.
-
Faith is faith, if someone needs proof, it ceases to be faith, and if their faith is so shaky as to fall apart should anything in the Bible be shown to not be 100% literal, then they have very shaky faith indeed.
Faith is described in Hebrews 11:1 (KJV) as the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Faith is evidence Jim - but not as we empirically know it. I know that I couldn't believe in God without evidence - and evidence pretty much flowing all the time at that. When the taps get turned off (and they do) then I do like an automobile during an oil crisis.
God isn't unreasonable. He doesn't require anyone to believe blindly. Instead, he provides them with the kind of evidence that will either:
a) convince them so that his criterion for saving them is satisfied (after which he he provides them with the evidence to..)
b satisfy them that he exists once he has saved them.
or
c) satisfy them as to the justness of their punishment. It will cause them anguish in Hell as they view all the opportunity for salvation which was provided them but to which they said in their heart "there is no God". They will agree with God that they were fools. For whatever about lack of concrete evidence, only a fool says in his heart that there is no God.
-
Were I to ever find myself back in the realm of the religious, I would only make it as far as a Deist. I would believe in a God who created the Big Bang, and then took a step back to watch the Universe unfold, needing no more influence on his part. But honestly, I don't even see myself making it there, because again, a supreme deity makes absolutely no sense to me.
Under you own steam that's about as far as you could and should get. As I say, blind belief and God are mutually exclusive entities. Under his steam is a different matter however. And salvation is by Gods grace - not by your efforts.
You'll get what your given whether you like it or not. I sincerely hope you like it.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Perdition, posted 05-25-2008 9:18 PM Perdition has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by bluegenes, posted 05-26-2008 6:46 AM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 60 of 64 (467981)
05-26-2008 3:57 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Hawkins
05-25-2008 11:36 PM


How can you be saved?
The Bible is clear. You must believe God.
Seeing as you don't need to believe in God to believe God there is no obstacle to salvation other than the person refusing to believe God
A question decided and answered by only you yourself.
Indeed. Refusal to believe is a choice. Or to put it another way..
quote:
2 Thessalonians 2:10 They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Worrying here is that God provides the evidence required to content yourself as to the wisdom of your Godless path .. all the way to damnation it would appear. So much for the empirical evidence which allowing a person to conclude there is no God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Hawkins, posted 05-25-2008 11:36 PM Hawkins has not replied

  
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