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Author Topic:   Biblical atrocities... ????
Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 65 (27372)
12-19-2002 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by John
12-19-2002 11:23 AM


That is supposed to mean that god sent Christ down to die for our sins. Somehow, that is supposed to make everything ok.
Why death means squat to a god is beyond me. Even if Jesus spent three days in Hell for the sins of humanity, so what? According to many in the Christian community, people spend an eternity there.
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When all else fails, check the manual

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by John, posted 12-19-2002 11:23 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
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Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 65 (27430)
12-19-2002 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by John
12-19-2002 12:18 AM


This part of Funky's post really made me think:
quote:
Considering the culture I think this is pretty honourable. The women are provided for, they are given time to grieve their loss and offered a new beggining. If things don't work out then she is free, cannot be sold or treated as a slave. Again we see that God wants to provide for the children and the widowed.
The part in bold really gets me. When god had his chosen slaughter their foes, which they did through deception when they circumcized the males leaving them defenseless, everyone was killed. Everyone that is except for the virgin females. Any woman who had known a man[/i] and infants were put to the sword. What children or widows are you referring to?
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When all else fails, check the manual

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by John, posted 12-19-2002 12:18 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by John, posted 12-19-2002 10:49 PM Mr. Davies has not replied

  
Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 65 (27435)
12-19-2002 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by funkmasterfreaky
12-19-2002 5:28 AM


quote:
(snip personal stuff)Here is a quick version of my take on the O.T. I'm sure it's not new but I tend to believe that the O.T intends to show the corruptness of man.
And god knew this before man was even created. This god, who is supposed to be omnipotent or so I've been told, created an imperfect being, man, yet this god holds all of humanity to a high standard. Failure to adhere to the standards results in an eternity of torture. Sounds to me that this god set most, if not all, of humanity up for failure.
quote:
This is one of the reasons why the History books show some of mans real lows. Even amongst God's people.
So this god's chosen was not much better than their contemporaries. While they did not toss babies in pits of wild, starving dogs, ala some of the more barbaric peoples, neither did most societies of the time. So, what made god favor some of humanity over another? As a parent, I surely never even appear to favor one of my kids over the others. I don't want them to kill each other either. Also, when they want to know what the rules are, I don't scribble things in books, leave cryptic messages, or tell one kid one thing and their siblings something else, I go in and clarify it for all of them, gathering them all in one room if I need to do that. I know I'm just a mere mortal man, but I'll stack my parenting skills up against this god's any day and I'll come out on top.
quote:
Next it shows the faithfulness of the Almighty, even though his people seem to turn from him every second generation, when they choose to call out in humbleness and repent God is faithful to them and brings up people to deliver them.
Why just them? There are many deserving people in the world, yet this god chosen kist one particular tribe to protect and lead them out from their enemies, no matter what their crime they committed against their contemporaries. I don't know of any human that does screw up at least once a day, but why god's chosen stayed chosen is just plain wrong. If that isn't playing favorites with your children, I don't know what would be.
quote:
The third thing is when looking at the law especially is the time. It's a different time, (the more things change the more they stay the same eh) try and take into context the people who this law was delivered to.(snip more get sleep stuff)
So this god's law is mutable? Your god allows even his chosen to behave like semi-barbarians because it was an earlier time? Seems to me there are many laws that say how to make sure you always keep your mind focused on not pissing of god, but the laws about people, stone them to death for many different infractions and kill your enemies, seems to be completely lacking.
------------------
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This message is a reply to:
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Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 65 (28010)
12-28-2002 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by forgiven
12-27-2002 9:10 PM


quote:
topics like this one lead me to wonder at the purpose... do non-believers point to things they call "atrocities" in the bible in order to say something like "i don't believe in God because....." or what?
Well it's like this. As a former Christian myself, I came to understand that the God of Abraham was not a nice being. You can tell me till your blue in the face on how your God is just, caring, and benevolent. However many here, and its not just me, can easily use the Bible to show you just how the God of the Bible is nothing of the sort. The OT is full of how God was going to punish his chosen for turning away from Him, but it also shows God turning a blind eye so his chosen can rob, maim, kill, and just rape those He did not find worthy. Why God did not bother coming down and showing His other cildren the way is plain wrong.
As God is the creator of us all, supposedly, and we are, again supposedly, all His children, the utter contempt this god has for most of its children boarders on the criminally insane. Why God or any parent would favor one child over the next to the point of letting a select few butcher the others is beyond the pale. However when you are asked why your God allows and encourages the chosen ones to kill and rape, you say "It's His Justice" or something equivalent. As there is no justice there, unless you twist the words ala 1984, you'd be better off saying "My God can do what He wants, so down on your knees and beg for forgiveness".
quote:
that kind of logic reduces to, i don't believe in God because i disagree with things he's said or done... my short answer is, so what?
Well my short answer is I don't believe in your God at all. I was asked, by you I think, what type of god or gods do I believe in. Well I still don't know but I doubt if it's anything like what is described in the OT. If there is a god that created us all and it allows its children to behave like butchers, then it doesn't care, lives through us, or maybe even something else that I can't think of at the moment. But don't tel me your God is all kind and just as it is not.
quote:
God isn't in the dock, as lewis said... he is God, his actions are just and holy and require no apology from me or any other christian
Ok, but what about non-Christian god or a different god other than the God of Abraham? If I were to read to a bunch of Christians what the God of the OT did but with a changed name, the syntax dressed up in different phrases and changing the stories ever so slightly, but doing the same things to humanity, allowing some chosen class to do what they want to enemies of their god, they'd act in total revulsion. What is so funny is when you compare the actions of this created deity next to theirs from the OT and watch a paradygm shift without a clutch. While your God can do anything you want Him to do because He's God, it does not make Him Holy, righteous or even right.
quote:
God is perfectly just in his dealings with humanity... the fact that some argue about the form his justice took at one time, or takes now, has no bearing on that...
The "M" part of an "S&M" couple also says something like, "My Master is perfectly fair to a little miscreant like me, isn't that right Master?".
quote:
but the thing that *really* gets to me in discussions like this is, where in the world do people who deny the existence of good and evil get the notion that an act of God is good *or* bad? how convenient to appeal to some moral standard they deny exists when the subject is God
I don't deny the existence of some deity or deities, I think yours is either A) A petty, egotistical tyrant or B) Non-existant. Just because I don't believe in your God does not make me an atheist. Just like not believing in Amen-Ra makes you an atheist either.
quote:
God is the creator, we are the creatures... God is perfectly holy and just, we are not... none of us are innocent, not one... and any judgement God proscribes is, by definition, just
Perfectly Holy? By whose standards? Not by mine or some on this board. Yes, we may be holding up you God to our imperfect human standards but even still your God fails the Humane tests. The rest of your arguement is circular and without meaning. You hold that your God can do no wrong, fine. However, I seriously doubt you give credence to another deity or deities from other cultures and religions. So why should yours get any respect for acting like a spoiled child (worship me or die for all eternity!)?
As for not being innocent, this God of yours is supposedly omnipotent and may know before conception if a person is going to hell or not. Yet the pain and suffering that we've been told awaits us in hell is not on His list to worry about.
If your God is truly just, then I don't fear my death and standing before Him. I would think a just and righteous god would not worry what a scant 60, 70, or even 120 years are compared to eternity. I also don't think that a righteous God requires worship or in need of praise from His creations. If He is, then He's a raving Egomaniac and I doubt any of us could stand before Him and not piss Him off in our imperfection.
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When all else fails, check the manual

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by forgiven, posted 12-27-2002 9:10 PM forgiven has not replied

  
Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 65 (28062)
12-29-2002 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Gzus
12-29-2002 10:08 AM


Yeah, the true believers seem to be very quiet on this subject.
Catch theeir god in a lie, then the answer is "You can't judge my god by the laws of man" and then turn around and ask just where do you think laws came from in the first place.
Ah, the mental gymnastics needed.
------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

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Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 65 (28103)
12-30-2002 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by funkmasterfreaky
12-30-2002 7:34 AM


Intersting take on what God condones or just wants to regulate.
So God wanted to regulate slavery as it was spread throughout the time of the OT. That's fine but let's look at what else God did back then, according to the Bible.
1: He flooded the world because men were so wicked. Now this makes things even more interesting as if Noah and his family were the only ones left standing, he should have been able to lay down the law and tell them firmly "NO SLAVES".
2: A prophet set forth wild animals to kill children who had the audacity to tease his bald head.
3: Killed the first born in Egypt to "Let His people go".
4: Destroyed Sodom as it was so evil and wicked.
5: Forced his people to wander the desert for 40 years because they had a golden calf. It seems that this God is far more concerned on how it is worshipped than how people, His children, treat each other.
6: The 10 Commandments say nothing about slavery.
So why did God do all of these other things to correct the wickedness or lapses in worshipping Him but not say to his chosen, especially when the 10 Commandments were handed to them?
------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-30-2002 7:34 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Kolyahu, posted 12-30-2002 9:56 AM Mr. Davies has replied

  
Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 65 (28113)
12-30-2002 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Kolyahu
12-30-2002 9:56 AM


(this is in response to Kolyahu in post #30)
I have no idea why you posted what you did.
If you're trying to justify the actions that has been attributed to God or his chosen with the errors that our glorious leader is doing today, well God's a god and Bush, well, I'm not impressed.
So, why did God allow slavery when He had made it loud and clear about what would happen if people committed other sins that God seemed to be more concerned with?
------------------
When all else fails, check the manual
[This message has been edited by Mr. Davies, 12-30-2002]

This message is a reply to:
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Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 65 (28378)
01-03-2003 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by gene90
01-01-2003 8:07 PM


Why would God need to kill anyone? If God kills somebody, then it shows that God, the Omnipotent, Allpowerful, Omnipresent being that He is can't find a better way to handle one of His children?
From what I've seen, God has allowed people to be killed by his chosen for whatever reason, kill the first born as punishment with plagues and curses, or just drown them.
Question: Did God ever go to those that were about to be slaughtered and said, "Hey look here, you're making Me mad and I'd like to show you better ways to do your work, without hurting others! Oh, yeah and if you're going to worship something else that you think will help you, well, here's what I am doing for you, so if you want to worship somebody, worship Me as I AM the real deal."
Answer: No. He just slaughtered them.
------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by gene90, posted 01-01-2003 8:07 PM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 65 (28380)
01-03-2003 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by gene90
01-01-2003 8:18 PM


quote:
We had this discussion already. It was about mixed fiber clothing and Levitical law. Do you remember? You know, higher law usurping Levitical law.
Them Leviticus did not get his laws from God? These were not inspired laws but Laws of Men? What else in the Bible could be man made and not inspired by God?
quote:
That whole "Love thy neighbor as thyself" kind of usurps the OT laws about enslavement, rape, and killing now doesn't it?
Slaves were not considered to be people or your neighbor. Still, God, the Omnipotent One, let it go on for so long.
quote:
It doesn't *necessarily* mean a law was repealed.
What does that mean?
quote:
I see these as limitations aimed at incrementally improving the Israelites' rather sad history of human rights.
Wait, they were God's chosen and instead of allowing another tribe to become His chosen, he stuck with them? What made them so special? Also, it was God that let them have the virgin concubines, unless of course that's another part of what men said and not really what God wanted.
quote:
If God gave Moses the US Bill of Rights and Constitution as it is today, do you think the Israelites would have been able to live it? No, they couldn't even keep to worshipping one God.
Nice stretch. They did not need either. The prohibition on slavery, rape, etc., should have been direct with punishments of death for those who defied God's law. After all, what's wrong with God killing anybody right?
quote:
By the way, I want to see your Scriptural references to these OT laws being eternal.
God, the Immortal One, the One Who Is, the Omniscient One, changes his mind?
------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by gene90, posted 01-01-2003 8:18 PM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 65 (28493)
01-06-2003 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by funkmasterfreaky
01-06-2003 2:14 AM


From Funkmasterfreaky:
quote:
I can agree with you guys here, that the Israelites did not understand the nature of God. God seems to be slowly revealing himself over time, up until the point where he had given them enough to know that no matter what they did they could not live up to God's holiness.
Then what purpose did the flood serve for then? Why kill the first born in Egypt to punish those children for their parent's sins? The more things are explained in this fashion, ie, "God's ways are not our ways", "God is mysterious so we should worship Him", and the like, I find it even harder to accept your God.
Can you then say that God was wrong? No? Even God himself regretted His actions in the flood, seriously underminding any claims that He is omnipotent.
quote:
Then he sent Jesus to show us his grace and mercy.
Okay, if the Isrealites were not much better than many of their contemporaries, why did God even bother with them? It would seem God would have been able to trach a more advanced society, the Greeks, the Persians, even the Chinese all of whom were more civilized? The Chinese should have been the first choice!
I know, God works in mysterious ways and His ways are not our ways which is fine as I don't kill my children.
------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 01-06-2003 2:14 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by shilohproject, posted 01-07-2003 3:03 AM Mr. Davies has not replied
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Mr. Davies
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 65 (28776)
01-09-2003 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by gene90
01-09-2003 6:54 PM


quote:
quote:
quote:
Why would God need to kill anyone?
To preserve Israel. Or perchance even to save the "victim" from something worse that might happen to him down the line.
To preserve Isreal? Why? What makes them so special. As for killing someone to prevent them from doing something worse, well God seems to be a lazy guy as it would have been easier if He would have appeared to them and save, "Look my child....." and teach them. There is no need for an omnipotent God to resort to killing somebody.
I know, freewill, but tell me, what freewill does a dead man have? What choices would a godless man have if they have never seen or heard of the Truth? If God only cares to preserve His children of Isreal to the determent of all of His other children, why should His other Children give a rats ass for that kind of a parent?
quote:
quote:
quote:
No. He just slaughtered them.
How do you know? Do you hold the Bible as inerrant and containing every single relevant piece of information about the dealings of God? If you do, you're more Fundy than me.
Well, something tells me that you don't see the word of God as being inerrant in so far as humans are writing it down. That's fine. Still it is true, if the flood was true, that God slaughtered infants whose only crime was that God felt their mothers were guilty of something.
------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by gene90, posted 01-09-2003 6:54 PM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
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