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Author Topic:   Biblical atrocities... ????
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 65 (27327)
12-19-2002 5:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by John
12-19-2002 12:18 AM


John just three quick things in passing. (I'm not at all dodging this post just way past my bedtime leaving to see the family tommorow) Here is a quick version of my take on the O.T. I'm sure it's not new but I tend to believe that the O.T intends to show the corruptness of man. This is one of the reasons why the History books show some of mans real lows. Even amongst God's people. Next it shows the faithfulness of the Almighty, even though his people seem to turn from him every second generation, when they choose to call out in humbleness and repent God is faithful to them and brings up people to deliver them. The third thing is when looking at the law especially is the time. It's a different time, (the more things change the more they stay the same eh) try and take into context the people who this law was delivered to. Going to get some rest. Take care John.
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by John, posted 12-19-2002 12:18 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by nator, posted 12-19-2002 9:58 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied
 Message 4 by John, posted 12-19-2002 10:59 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied
 Message 12 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-19-2002 11:15 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 65 (27359)
12-19-2002 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by John
12-19-2002 10:59 AM


Romans 3
25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[1] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by John, posted 12-19-2002 10:59 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by John, posted 12-19-2002 11:23 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied
 Message 9 by Chara, posted 12-19-2002 2:44 PM funkmasterfreaky has replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 65 (27583)
12-21-2002 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Chara
12-19-2002 2:44 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chara:
[B]
quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Romans 3
25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[1] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--

This verse looks back to the whole history of human sin before it was judged at the cross - what you've been referring to as unacceptable - a holy God letting sin pass for four thousand years, from Adam to Christ. God has been righteous (just) in "passing over" sin, both in pardoning without judgment those who believed in Him and those who were His enemies. Why? Because He had already planned to send Christ to become the propiation* for the whole world. God's righteousness (justice) is seen clearly when He judged human sin openly in Jesus' sacrifice.
I also thought of Psalm 73 in connection with this thread:
1
Surely God is good to Israel,
To those who are pure in heart!
2
But as for me, my feet came close to stumbling,
My steps had almost slipped.
3
For I was envious of the arrogant
As I saw the prosperity of the wicked.
4
For there are no pains in their death,
And their body is fat.
5
They are not in trouble as other men,
Nor are they plagued like mankind.
6
Therefore pride is their necklace;
The garment of violence covers them.
7
Their eye bulges from fatness;
The imaginations of their heart run riot.
8
They mock and wickedly speak of oppression;
They speak from on high.
9
They have set their mouth against the heavens,
And their tongue parades through the earth.
10
Therefore his people return to this place,
And waters of abundance are drunk by them.
11
They say, "How does God know?
And is there knowledge with the Most High?"
12
Behold, these are the wicked;
And always at ease, they have increased in wealth.
13
Surely in vain I have kept my heart pure
And washed my hands in innocence;
14
For I have been stricken all day long
And chastened every morning.
15
If I had said, "I will speak thus,"
Behold, I would have betrayed the generation of Your children.
16
When I pondered to understand this,
It was troublesome in my sight
17
Until I came into the sanctuary of God;
Then I perceived their end.
18
Surely You set them in slippery places;
You cast them down to destruction.
19
How they are destroyed in a moment!
They are utterly swept away by sudden terrors!
20
Like a dream when one awakes,
O Lord, when aroused, You will despise their form.
21
When my heart was embittered
And I was pierced within,
22
Then I was senseless and ignorant;
I was like a beast before You.
23
Nevertheless I am continually with You;
You have taken hold of my right hand.
24
With Your counsel You will guide me,
And afterward receive me to glory.
25
Whom have I in heaven but You?
And besides You, I desire nothing on earth.
26
My flesh and my heart may fail,
But God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.
27
For, behold, those who are far from You will perish;
You have destroyed all those who are unfaithful to You.
28
But as for me, the nearness of God is my good;
I have made the Lord GOD my refuge,
That I may tell of all Your works.
*Propitiation. The turning away of wrath by an offering ... The sin of man HAS incurred the wrath of God. That wrath is averted only by Christ's atoning offering.
And does this make any sense.
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Chara, posted 12-19-2002 2:44 PM Chara has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-27-2002 7:59 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied
 Message 20 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-29-2002 2:37 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 65 (28003)
12-27-2002 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by funkmasterfreaky
12-21-2002 6:41 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
[B]
quote:
Originally posted by Chara:
quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Romans 3
25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[1] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--

This verse looks back to the whole history of human sin before it was judged at the cross - what you've been referring to as unacceptable - a holy God letting sin pass for four thousand years, from Adam to Christ. God has been righteous (just) in "passing over" sin, both in pardoning without judgment those who believed in Him and those who were His enemies. Why? Because He had already planned to send Christ to become the propiation* for the whole world. God's righteousness (justice) is seen clearly when He judged human sin openly in Jesus' sacrifice.
I also thought of Psalm 73 in connection with this thread:
1
Surely God is good to Israel,
To those who are pure in heart!
2
But as for me, my feet came close to stumbling,
My steps had almost slipped.
3
For I was envious of the arrogant
As I saw the prosperity of the wicked.
4
For there are no pains in their death,
And their body is fat.
5
They are not in trouble as other men,
Nor are they plagued like mankind.
6
Therefore pride is their necklace;
The garment of violence covers them.
7
Their eye bulges from fatness;
The imaginations of their heart run riot.
8
They mock and wickedly speak of oppression;
They speak from on high.
9
They have set their mouth against the heavens,
And their tongue parades through the earth.
10
Therefore his people return to this place,
And waters of abundance are drunk by them.
11
They say, "How does God know?
And is there knowledge with the Most High?"
12
Behold, these are the wicked;
And always at ease, they have increased in wealth.
13
Surely in vain I have kept my heart pure
And washed my hands in innocence;
14
For I have been stricken all day long
And chastened every morning.
15
If I had said, "I will speak thus,"
Behold, I would have betrayed the generation of Your children.
16
When I pondered to understand this,
It was troublesome in my sight
17
Until I came into the sanctuary of God;
Then I perceived their end.
18
Surely You set them in slippery places;
You cast them down to destruction.
19
How they are destroyed in a moment!
They are utterly swept away by sudden terrors!
20
Like a dream when one awakes,
O Lord, when aroused, You will despise their form.
21
When my heart was embittered
And I was pierced within,
22
Then I was senseless and ignorant;
I was like a beast before You.
23
Nevertheless I am continually with You;
You have taken hold of my right hand.
24
With Your counsel You will guide me,
And afterward receive me to glory.
25
Whom have I in heaven but You?
And besides You, I desire nothing on earth.
26
My flesh and my heart may fail,
But God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.
27
For, behold, those who are far from You will perish;
You have destroyed all those who are unfaithful to You.
28
But as for me, the nearness of God is my good;
I have made the Lord GOD my refuge,
That I may tell of all Your works.
*Propitiation. The turning away of wrath by an offering ... The sin of man HAS incurred the wrath of God. That wrath is averted only by Christ's atoning offering.
And does this make any sense.

I'd like for this topic to continue, as it is something I can actually discuss.
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-21-2002 6:41 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by John, posted 12-29-2002 9:09 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 65 (28047)
12-29-2002 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by funkmasterfreaky
12-21-2002 6:41 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
[B]
quote:
Originally posted by Chara:
quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Romans 3
25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[1] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--

This verse looks back to the whole history of human sin before it was judged at the cross - what you've been referring to as unacceptable - a holy God letting sin pass for four thousand years, from Adam to Christ. God has been righteous (just) in "passing over" sin, both in pardoning without judgment those who believed in Him and those who were His enemies. Why? Because He had already planned to send Christ to become the propiation* for the whole world. God's righteousness (justice) is seen clearly when He judged human sin openly in Jesus' sacrifice.
I also thought of Psalm 73 in connection with this thread:
1
Surely God is good to Israel,
To those who are pure in heart!
2
But as for me, my feet came close to stumbling,
My steps had almost slipped.
3
For I was envious of the arrogant
As I saw the prosperity of the wicked.
4
For there are no pains in their death,
And their body is fat.
5
They are not in trouble as other men,
Nor are they plagued like mankind.
6
Therefore pride is their necklace;
The garment of violence covers them.
7
Their eye bulges from fatness;
The imaginations of their heart run riot.
8
They mock and wickedly speak of oppression;
They speak from on high.
9
They have set their mouth against the heavens,
And their tongue parades through the earth.
10
Therefore his people return to this place,
And waters of abundance are drunk by them.
11
They say, "How does God know?
And is there knowledge with the Most High?"
12
Behold, these are the wicked;
And always at ease, they have increased in wealth.
13
Surely in vain I have kept my heart pure
And washed my hands in innocence;
14
For I have been stricken all day long
And chastened every morning.
15
If I had said, "I will speak thus,"
Behold, I would have betrayed the generation of Your children.
16
When I pondered to understand this,
It was troublesome in my sight
17
Until I came into the sanctuary of God;
Then I perceived their end.
18
Surely You set them in slippery places;
You cast them down to destruction.
19
How they are destroyed in a moment!
They are utterly swept away by sudden terrors!
20
Like a dream when one awakes,
O Lord, when aroused, You will despise their form.
21
When my heart was embittered
And I was pierced within,
22
Then I was senseless and ignorant;
I was like a beast before You.
23
Nevertheless I am continually with You;
You have taken hold of my right hand.
24
With Your counsel You will guide me,
And afterward receive me to glory.
25
Whom have I in heaven but You?
And besides You, I desire nothing on earth.
26
My flesh and my heart may fail,
But God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.
27
For, behold, those who are far from You will perish;
You have destroyed all those who are unfaithful to You.
28
But as for me, the nearness of God is my good;
I have made the Lord GOD my refuge,
That I may tell of all Your works.
*Propitiation. The turning away of wrath by an offering ... The sin of man HAS incurred the wrath of God. That wrath is averted only by Christ's atoning offering.
And does this make any sense.

still no response to this post?
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-21-2002 6:41 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 65 (28097)
12-30-2002 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Karl
12-30-2002 6:26 AM


Okay going back to where John and I started here with this thread, I've noticed that slavery in the OT seems to be considered one of the major attrocities.
First off, the culture MUST be taken into consideration. The Israelites when they recieved the law had just come out of slavery themselves. Slavery at the time seems to be a globally accepted practice. We know from recent history that it is impossible to make drastic changes to culture/systems in a short span of time. Any such attempts seem to be too much of a shock to a society/culture, and generally don't work.
Having said this I don't believe that God condoned slavery, however due to the fact that it was ingrained into society at the time, he gave his people laws to help govern this practice, and somewhat protect those who were enslaved.
Maybe God's aim was to rid humanity of slavery, but until such time, laws were needed to ease the suffering of those who found themselves victims of slavery.
Here are a couple links I've found if you want to check them out.
http://www.vineyardfm.org/highalert/_disc1/0000001e.htm
BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.: Rbc
This is the area I have chosen to put some study into for now, I hope to establish the fact, that the laws regarding slavery were put into place not to condone slavery, rather, to regulate a flawed cultural practice.
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.
[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 12-30-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Karl, posted 12-30-2002 6:26 AM Karl has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Mr. Davies, posted 12-30-2002 9:05 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied
 Message 29 by Coragyps, posted 12-30-2002 9:21 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 65 (28396)
01-04-2003 3:28 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by John
01-04-2003 12:54 AM


The law was only given to the Israelites. For the the Israelites.
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.
[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 01-04-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by John, posted 01-04-2003 12:54 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by shilohproject, posted 01-04-2003 4:18 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied
 Message 42 by John, posted 01-04-2003 11:49 AM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 65 (28469)
01-06-2003 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by shilohproject
01-06-2003 1:13 AM


I can agree with you guys here, that the Israelites did not understand the nature of God. God seems to be slowly revealing himself over time, up until the point where he had given them enough to know that no matter what they did they could not live up to God's holiness.
Then he sent Jesus to show us his grace and mercy.
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by shilohproject, posted 01-06-2003 1:13 AM shilohproject has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Mr. Davies, posted 01-06-2003 10:46 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 65 (30412)
01-28-2003 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Mr. Davies
01-06-2003 10:46 AM


Okay, if the Isrealites were not much better than many of their contemporaries, why did God even bother with them? It would seem God would have been able to trach a more advanced society, the Greeks, the Persians, even the Chinese all of whom were more civilized? The Chinese should have been the first choice!
I don't know for sure why God chose the Israelites. However it seems to me that God would not choose the most civil or moral society, he would choose the most corupt and immoral to prove his power.
God seems to work this way even today. When he asks us to do something he always asks the impossible, so that we know in the end that it was God who accomplished the task through us, not us on our own power.
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Mr. Davies, posted 01-06-2003 10:46 AM Mr. Davies has not replied

  
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