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Author Topic:   Biblical atrocities... ????
gene90
Member (Idle past 3933 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 32 of 65 (28264)
01-01-2003 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by John
12-19-2002 1:37 PM


quote:
I know what you mean. When you know you are going to come back, death kinda loses it kick.
Then why is it wrong for God to kill anyone?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by John, posted 12-19-2002 1:37 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Mr. Davies, posted 01-03-2003 6:30 PM gene90 has replied
 Message 38 by John, posted 01-04-2003 12:15 AM gene90 has replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3933 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 33 of 65 (28265)
01-01-2003 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by John
12-19-2002 1:37 PM


Duplicate.
[This message has been edited by gene90, 01-01-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by John, posted 12-19-2002 1:37 PM John has not replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3933 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 34 of 65 (28266)
01-01-2003 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by John
12-19-2002 10:59 AM


quote:
So your argument is that kidnapping, rape, slaughter, and slaving is OK because of the time in which they lived? Well, funk, if God's law is eternal, that makes it ok now too doesn't it?
We had this discussion already. It was about mixed fiber clothing and Levitical law. Do you remember? You know, higher law usurping Levitical law. That whole "Love thy neighbor as thyself" kind of usurps the OT laws about enslavement, rape, and killing now doesn't it? It doesn't *necessarily* mean a law was repealed.
I see these as limitations aimed at incrementally improving the Israelites' rather sad history of human rights. If God gave Moses the US Bill of Rights and Constitution as it is today, do you think the Israelites would have been able to live it? No, they couldn't even keep to worshipping one God.
By the way, I want to see your Scriptural references to these OT laws being eternal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by John, posted 12-19-2002 10:59 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Mr. Davies, posted 01-03-2003 6:42 PM gene90 has replied
 Message 39 by John, posted 01-04-2003 12:54 AM gene90 has replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3933 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 56 of 65 (28761)
01-09-2003 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Mr. Davies
01-03-2003 6:30 PM


quote:
Why would God need to kill anyone?
To preserve Israel. Or perchance even to save the "victim" from something worse that might happen to him down the line.
quote:
No. He just slaughtered them.
How do you know? Do you hold the Bible as inerrant and containing every single relevant piece of information about the dealings of God? If you do, you're more Fundy than me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Mr. Davies, posted 01-03-2003 6:30 PM Mr. Davies has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Mr. Davies, posted 01-09-2003 10:32 PM gene90 has replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3933 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 57 of 65 (28762)
01-09-2003 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by NeoPagan
01-06-2003 4:34 PM


quote:
How could it be paid in full, if our sentence was supposedly an "eternity" in hell?
If Jesus were "infinitely" just then it would be payed in full.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by NeoPagan, posted 01-06-2003 4:34 PM NeoPagan has not replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3933 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 58 of 65 (28763)
01-09-2003 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Mr. Davies
01-03-2003 6:42 PM


quote:
Them Leviticus did not get his laws from God?
I did not say that. I suggested that the laws of God could be superceded by other laws. Especially Mosaic law.
It would be nice if you did not deliberately misrepresent me in the future.
quote:
Still, God, the Omnipotent One, let it (slavery) go on for so long.
You're ignoring my past point about the possibility of God gradually reforming the Israelite society over time, rather than in one jump. Please stay with the issues.
quote:
What does that mean?
It means that the OT limitations on taking captives to wife is irrelevant if it breaks another law ("love thy neighbor") to force one to marry in the first place.
quote:
Wait, they were God's chosen and instead of allowing another tribe to become His chosen, he stuck with them?
Because it was promised. I believe it is in Isaiah (I may be mistaken) where it is said that Israel was written upon God's hand.
quote:
unless of course that's another part of what men said and not really what God wanted.
That could be a possibility.
quote:
The prohibition on slavery, rape, etc., should have been direct with punishments of death for those who defied God's law.
And if the people were not ready for that, and they rebelled, and all had to be killed?
quote:
God, the Immortal One, the One Who Is, the Omniscient One, changes his mind?
Changing a law is not the same as changing one's mind. Say if a chronic wasting disease outbreak occurs and all the game is destroyed under an edict of law. The outbreak subsides and the law is repealed. Who changed their mind?
Now, for my own edification, why don't you hand over those Biblical references?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Mr. Davies, posted 01-03-2003 6:42 PM Mr. Davies has not replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3933 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 59 of 65 (28764)
01-09-2003 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by John
01-04-2003 12:15 AM


quote:
How many slaughtered pagans do you think get that deal? How many slaughtered believers, for that matter, get that deal?
How many pagans and believers are worthy of that deal?
quote:
If I knew for certain that I'd be walking three days later, I'd be quite happy to jump in front of a train, especially if I knew that it was to save the rest of humanity from a horrible fate.
That's nice. Would you be willing to take upon yourself every human frailty, suffering, and weakness that ever was felt or will be felt by future generations? Forgive me if I don't believe you'd make it past the first day of the Holocaust before giving in.
Even if you did make it even that far (and that would be amazing) you haven't lived a sinless life therefore you are incapable of making that kind of sacrifice because (as I recall) you are not sinless and you are not infinitely just and I seriously doubt that you are a Son of God in the flesh.
And by the way, who was it that said that Jesus "became God" after he was crucified?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by John, posted 01-04-2003 12:15 AM John has not replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3933 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 60 of 65 (28765)
01-09-2003 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by John
01-04-2003 12:54 AM


quote:
Interesting that a law can be 'usurped' but still not 'repealed.'
I'm not necessarily saying that a law cannot be repealed. I'm waiting (with interest) for the references that say every law is eternal. I am however pointing out other possibilities even if that is correct.
quote:
You seem to imply that God just stepped in to fix the mess, when in fact he was part and parcel to making the mess.
How was God part of making the mess? Through inaction? That would be a violation of free will now wouldn't it? And even if God stepped in would people have listened? Or would they all have disobeyed? (And therefore been removed even further from God?)
quote:
God did a lot of talking in the OT.
That He did. But how much listening was done in the OT? As soon as Moses walked up the mountain they were making golden calves. The fact is that they could barely follow the basic laws they got. They would have had no hope at following modern laws because their society was not ready for them.
Now John, tell me. If everybody gets resurrected what's wrong with God occasionally killing people? Especially when it is necessary for some future good?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by John, posted 01-04-2003 12:54 AM John has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by doctrbill, posted 01-09-2003 10:20 PM gene90 has not replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3933 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 64 of 65 (28938)
01-12-2003 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Mr. Davies
01-09-2003 10:32 PM


quote:
To preserve Isreal? Why? What makes them so special.
I don't think anybody really knows all the reasons why it was Israel but some group had to lay the foundation stones for Christianity. Plus, once it was promised to Abraham it had to stay in his family.
quote:
As for killing someone to prevent them from doing something worse, well God seems to be a lazy guy as it would have been easier if He would have appeared to them and save
Well you know the canned answer and you gave it below, but I want to point out that actually beholding God could be worse. It is my belief (and I contend that when you are debating me you are debating my own peculiar beliefs, or else you are constructing strawmen) that if somebody saw God and then fell away that person would be *worse* off than somebody that didn't see God and fell away. Non- theists often say "Knowing there is a God doesn't mean I'll worship him". Most Christians hold that something similar happened in the War of Heaven. I would think the angels that fell pretty much knew there was a God...
quote:
what freewill does a dead man have? What choices would a godless man have if they have never seen or heard of the Truth?
I am responding to these together because I feel they are related. It depends on your view of the afterlife. If you interpret afterlife as an immediate trip to the judgement bar before possibly being flung into the bunroaster I suppose your argument is valid. If there is a possibility of being taught and converted, or rejecting the gospel in the afterlife, then this goes away. I believe that people who were not exposed to the Gospel message in life will have a chance in the afterlife for conversion. I also believe that there is a significant difference in the penalty for sin in ignorance and people who knowingly sin.
quote:
If God only cares to preserve His children of Isreal to the determent of all of His other children, why should His other Children give a rats ass for that kind of a parent?
I don't think it was to the detriment of all other children (except in a literal Global flood, of course) most of the time only people in Mesopotamia and surrounding areas get smited.
Of course in the Christian worldview it seems like Gentiles are getting the better end of the stick. Jesus died for everyone, and belief and obedience gets an eternal reward. It isn't that that eternal reward is only for the Jews. The way I see it, most any culture that could have been chosen to be the covenant people would have been about the same way. There would be cultural differences but there would also be wars and dissensions and the occasional pestilence.
quote:
Still it is true, if the flood was true, that God slaughtered infants whose only crime was that God felt their mothers were guilty of something.
Anytime innocents die is it is unfortunate. The only answer I can make to this is that it is my belief that infants and young children are not informed enough to have truly free will and so are not truly capable of sin. Therefore it is my opinion that they are covered by the resurrection and judgment for what happened in life is very lenient, although theoretically I believe they are granted full faculty after resurrection and *could* choose to fall away in the post-mortal existance and still be condemned. It is the parents whose eternal welfare I am concerned the most about.
By the way all of your points are sound and well-constructed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Mr. Davies, posted 01-09-2003 10:32 PM Mr. Davies has not replied

  
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