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Author | Topic: Where is the theological evidence for God's benevolence? | |||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Correct me if I am wrong, arachnophilia, but are your beliefs not more in line with what this man is saying?
Page not found - aish.com If so, I can see why you and I disagree. I have a friend who studies the Torah on a daily basis. Our conversations are warm, divinely inspired, yet totally without resolution. We are both strongly attached to our beliefs. He would agree with me on one point, however. Spiritual insight is often gained through impartation from God Himself and not through scholastic effort.
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
i'm starting to think that christ was not actually a sacrifice to forgive sins, but a gesture from god to us. and i think his life was more important than his death.
Partial agreement here. I believe that Jesus death and resurrection was a message. It was the broadside saying that GOD is forgiving and loving. It's not the act that is the mitzvah, it is only the announcement. But I disagree that one part is more important than the other. IMHO Jesus life and death are equally important and equally part of the overall message. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1364 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
OK...lets say that we went to a department store. You had an item that you needed to bring back for a refund. You were told that in order to get a refund, you would have to go through the store manager. Would you then say to the clerk that if you were able to get a refund from the clerk than you would not need to go through the manager? Yes. You would expect service as you were the customer. well. let me use your example to specifically mimic your original argument. 1: i want to go to sears. they have some pants on sale. how do i get there?2: simple, you just cut through sears, and you're there. 1: yes, but how do i get to sears? 2: you just go through sears to get there. see how that kind of doesn't make sense? i know all of the standard christian philosophy. trust me. i'm just saying that it doesn't make sense. i get the part about god coming to us, though. and i think i agree.
then there is no way to really understand God nor draw any closer to Him through wisdom and scholastics alone. God is not some puzzle to be figured out. no, but at the same time, i shouldn't have to go to relationship counseling to know my wife. you know? if it's a personal relationship, it's a personal relationship.
Could your inability to rectify christianity (or Christ) with the old testament be a similar sort of stumbling block as Paul described? yes. but paul is trying to basically get people to have blind faith. i have faith, but i will not be blind. he's covering up the fact that his arguments have no weight. saying "no man is righteous on his own" is preposterous if you've read samuel or genesis or job. "the wages of sin are death" is preposterous if you've read exodus or leviticus. "christ was a sacrifice" is ridiculous if you've read leviticus, or are at familiar with what a sacrifice even is, and how it atones for sins.
What was the purpose of the gesture that god loves us, and he'll give up anything for us. i think if anything, christ was a symbolic sacrfice made by god TO US. made by god to god doesn't make any sense. and teh resurrection makes no sense in the context of sacrifice. if christ didn't actually die and remain dead, what essentially was god giving up? and from us to god makes no sense either. what are giving up at all? like i said, i think his life and his teachings are more important. i think it was god trying to tell us something. but that essentially makes him a prophet. which, btw, is convenient, considering how that's actually what "son of man" connotates, aside from it's literal meaning, "mortal."
So are you saying that christ was a mere token? no precisely. i meant it in terms of "gift."
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1364 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
I believe that Jesus death and resurrection was a message. It was the broadside saying that GOD is forgiving and loving. It's not the act that is the mitzvah, it is only the announcement. quite.
But I disagree that one part is more important than the other. IMHO Jesus life and death are equally important and equally part of the overall message. taken like that, i might be inclined to agree.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1364 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
my beliefs are strongly influenced by judaism, yes.
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I doubt that Jesus, the man, ever considered himself other than a good Jewish boy.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1364 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
well, he might have considered himself a prophet. he does refer to himself as the "son of man" in the nt.
but i do suspect that you're right.
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Citizzzen Inactive Member |
"...It (condemnation or arrest) is certainly not an example of human benevolence. Just remember that any ideology, precept, or belief can be twisted and used by individuals or organizations to further their own agendas. That this happens is a testament to human moral & intellectual frailty, but it isn't evidence against God's benevolence..."
I never suggested that there was proof that God was not benevolent, I was arguing that there is no proof he is... If here is evil, of there is sickness, if there is cruelty, it is only because God is allowing it to happen. Unless you want to argue that God is incapable of stopping such things... "...Hell, or any other supernatural place where eternal punishment is meted out, is not confined to Judaeo-Christian beliefs but is present in many other mythos. However, the fact that many Christians are taught about such a place does not make it correct (see my comment above) The idea of Hell as traditionally taught, is as anathema to the teachings of Christ as murder..." Just so I am clear, are you suggesting that the idea of Hell is not a part of the Christina Mythos? Surely you know yours is a minority interpretation? "...I view 'Hell' as being an absence of happiness and of peace brought about by an individual's own choices to separate him/herself from living a life of selfless love. In other words, Hell is what we make for ourselves - not a construct of a benevolent God..." That might be your inerpretation, but again it is a minority view. Traditional Christinaity says that Hell is the place that "sinners" go, and since both Hell and Sin are creations of God, it begs teh same question. Why did God make a hell, if he didn't want people to go there? Why put a tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden, if you didn't want humans to eat from it? Pretty negligent landscaping, no? "...I would agree with you if this were true. However it isn't. As I mentioned in a previous post, God - as epitomised by Christ - doesn't care about a person's faith, but rather in a person's love for his/her fellow human. And God doesn't care whether love comes in the form of homosexual or heterosexual love as long as it is consensual and selfless. No other view makes sense to me in the light of Christ's teachings and life..." Well, I think this is a fine ideology, but I have to ask, are their any other Christins on this board that agree withthis view? "...His death was an illustration of the ultimate sacrifice of His teachings of love for ones fellow human. 'Sin' is an often abused word. Perhaps a better way of looking at it would be to change the word to 'Selfishness'? Selfishness is the antithesis of Love, and as such is the best example of what really is a 'sin'..." Doesn't forcing your son to go to earth and be brutalized and killed for the selfishness of others strike you as a little selfish on somebody's part? While we are on the subject, while I admire your open minded interpretation of the Bible, doesn't, "I am the Lord thy God, you shall have no gods beore me" sound a little selfish? God regularly admit to being jealous, isn't that a selfish act? Citizzzen
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mick Member (Idle past 5006 days) Posts: 913 Joined: |
Belief is often a result of impartation and not empirical evidence. Many demand that I prove this impartation to them. I cannot, except through the life I live and the things I do and say. Okay, that's a very fair answer which I agree with completely. Cheers mick
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