Why Belief?

So don't remove religion from politics. is that what you're saying?

Sorry abut the delay ex, got caught up in other things. Same here. Of course, it wouldn’t be that gruesome to them or contemporary societies. Well, the Conquest is probably the easiest story in the Bible to prove false, it didn’t happen and not a single archaeologist is even contemplating looking for evidence, the search was abandoned decades ago. I think if a prophet told the masses that Yahweh commanded them to do something then they would likely do it. They wouldn’t want to risk what Achan and his family got as justice. I agree that it is wrong, religions all teach this, but adherents can normally find a clause. Yes I agree. Yes, but the problem is that a great many religious people are not obeying these religious thought and they are still claiming to be members of that faith. Religious types use faith as inspiration to steal. Palestine is a prime example of this. 1 Kings 2219 Micaiah continued, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD : I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?'
"One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'
22 " 'By what means?' the LORD asked.
" 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.
" 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'
23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you." Intention doesn’t alter the fact that they have brought dishonour to their parents. But, it is a bit of a stretch as you say. They are wrong, but it is religious types that have most consistently broken them. Atheists do not need the promise of eternal life, or the threat of eternal damnation to act in a decent manner, but the religious types do. Atheists are obviously more loving people than theists. But, if the Israelites didn’t kill because God told them too then they would be breaking another commandment. The Bible is actually presenting the Israelites as loyal people, loyal to Yahweh who brought them out of Egypt. Do you have evidence of child sacrifice in 2nd millennium BCE
Palestine?If you do, then it is another example in my favour! Cheers The only reason that I see in the Bible to explain why Israel slaughtered the inhabitants of Canaan was because in another myth God promised the land to Abraham’s descendants. Redemption? Another religious term? Religious people killing other religious people for no other reason that God commands them too. You are doing a great job of proving my point.Also, evil is such an subjective term. To these people, if it is true, they would be doing something that they believe is honouring their gods.Next I said Wouldn't you consider that it is just because humans are prone to these 'weaknesses' that the Bible authors made them into the commandments?You say Well...um...yeah... I'm not sure what you mean?What I meant was, as the Bible is purely a human work then the human authors would know that these atrocities are inherently human. They would have to include these weaknesses in their list of commandments in order to give them credibility. IOW, the commandments basically reflect what was going on in society anyway, these atrocities would have to be included by any author. Yes, I did say that removing religion wouldn’t eradicate all the problems, just most of them. Religion enters almost every aspect of life. God-fearing Christians regularly judge and condemn people who don’t agree with their faith. People, who couldn’t care less if there is a god or not get subjected to the most awful personal attacks by people such as street preachers. Yes many kill because God tells them too. Peter Sutcliffe, for example, AKA the Yorkshire Ripper killed 13 women because God told him to. I don’t think there is any way to construct accurate stats over a period of several thousand years.I am sure someone posted stats here last year that proved that there are more Christians in jail in the USA than there are atheists, what their crimes are, I really don’t know. Im not sure, a great many people do seem to go extremely weird when they think they have had a deeply personal experience of God. But, I agree, there are some people who could flip out at virtually anything. It isn’t so much the type of crime as the frequency of it. We would still have these types of crime, but much of the motivation would be removed. Much of the antagonism would not be there. What about if you had what you believed to be a communion with God and he asked you to kill someone in His name and if you didn’t do it he would kill not only you, but all of your family too? You may think that this isn’t your God speaking, then you think about Joshua and suddenly you think well maybe it was.But, there will always be some whackos yes. But the religions have far more than their fair share of them. I have no idea, but that wasn’t the point.The point is, and you can even find it here at EvC. There are people who will quite calmly tell you that they hate gay people because the Bible condemns homosexuality. Some of the most intensive debates here have been on homosexuality and the Bible. There will always be some atrocities, I am not claiming that the world would be perfect without religion. Just a lot safer. Sure, I think a good case could be made for the establishment of religious freedom, and dechristianisation, being contributory factors. The FR might is a very complex area that requires a new topic, and I am already involved in a few debates, so maybe at a later date we could discuss religion and the French revolution? I am far more interested in Near Eastern history and archaeology and we seem to have another Exodus debate brewing. I do concede that I am thinking more with my heart than with my head here, which I have been prone to do during the last few months here.So, in future, I will think things through a little more and read them over in the cold light of day before posting.Thanks for your well-thought out, and civil reply.Brian

in THE CONFLICT OF THE FACULTIES (DER STREIT DER FAKULTATEN) tranlation and introduction by Mary. J. Gregor 1979 Univ of Nebraska PressThis message has been edited by Brad McFall, 05-24-2005 02:24 PM

Hey... have any of you forumnists (especially columnists) heard of the oppresion of religious and political freedom in Belarus? My "friend", Ola, lives there currently, and all the commoners are awaiting the upcomng Orange Revolution, but as for now Christianity is supressed and political choice is repressed.Anyone who cares at all about the withdrawal of religious freedom in Belarus may answer me at any time.

I am posting this just to get the discussion moving a bit.
I've read a lot of posts where people describe their belief and how they've had such a moving experience. I understand that people have had a strong experience with christianity and Jesus, but that doesn't mean you can logically feel that it is right or true. Many people of other religions have had equally powerful experiences and connections with their holy books, priests, or Gods... if you believe the bible literally or if you truely believe that Jesus was the son of God, then you are in direct contradiction with other religions who have an equal claim on "truth" as you do. Given that, how do you go on believing what you do? Faith? How can one version of faith be better than another??

Faith and Belief are an individual relationship. What is right for one may not be right for all. However, when something has worked, it is reasonable to teach that method. It may well be only one of many possible methods, but it is one that works.Consider something as prosaic as Martial Arts. How many schools of Martial Arts are there? If you find one school works for you, does that mean the other schools are invalid?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This depends on what you hope to get out of your study?
In martial arts you may want to learn how to fight, or defend yourself.. you will probably learn this well given a number of different schools... you may want to learn inner-peace or dicipline, and a number of schools will give this to you as well.If you want inner-peace and tranquility, and your particular religion gives that to you, all is well, and I hope you can continue bringing that peace to others.
But to adopt a religion as actually giving you information about how the universe was created, who is responsible for it, and/or whether man has been created as in doctrine or evolved from more primative life seems impossible. You can believe what you like, but you must also simultaneously accept that your version of the truth is completely subjective and holds nothing above other versions.

That's a subject that's been discussed here at considerable length. It's one you and I may discuss one day in the future. But it also has nothing to do with the question you asked in the prior message or this particular thread.You asked: My response is that one faith or belief may work better for an individual than a different belief system, and some other method may work better for someone else. Of course. Who said that was not true?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

And yet faith is the thing that all Christians claim we have a measure of. How can we be sure we have it if we can't even agree on what faith is?
An easy solution for all the christians will be to go to Hebrews 11:1, which tells us that Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is an action, a method, not a concrete object. It's like running or walking, like skipping and jumping. It's individual and aesthetic.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

That's the opposite of what I'm saying. The government shouldn't be in the God business, and religion should not be in the law business.Get it?

Tell George Bush, I'm sure he'll find some reason to invade and free the people.Brian.

Only if there's lots of oil in Belarus.

From what I can gather there doesn't seem to be much religious oppression in Belarus, but rather a flourishing almost leading to a Theocracy. It looks like the Orthodox Church and the Russian Catholic Church, even the Islamic and Jewish Faiths are blossoming. The new religious laws simply make it difficult to come in or compete with the established churches.Gimme that Old Time Religion...

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Law is based on truth, or the interpretation thereof. Religion defines truth, or the definition thereof. It is hard to seperate the two. If truth is based merely on interpretation of human precedent, truth becomes defined based on the limitations of human fallibility (plus really good lawyers)If truth is based on religion, it becomes anchored to absolute (or nearly so) values.