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Author | Topic: What is a True Christian? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6223 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 3.8 |
Sorry. Of course you are right. Tradition has it that Moses wrote the Torah but nobody really knows.
The point remains though that Jesus says that it was Moses that commanded them to stone to death adulterers, and that Moses got it wrong. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2390 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
GDR writes:
Your point would be a lot stronger if you argued from a passage that was actually in the original manuscripts. As you probably know, the story of the woman caught in adultery is thought by most scholars to be a later addition to the text. Those who hold to inerrancy claim that it only applies to the original autographs, which did not contain this account.
Sorry. Of course you are right. Tradition has it that Moses wrote the Torah but nobody really knows.The point remains though that Jesus says that it was Moses that commanded them to stone to death adulterers, and that Moses got it wrong. "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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Phat Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
GDR writes: I would say that motive and intention matter. When we exhort,encourage, or teach each other we either use truth as we understand it or truth as we define it. All human wisdom is a gift from God. It is all God breathed or inspired. That doesn’t mean that human wisdom is inerrant. We do know that all scripture was written by humans. The question then is did God somehow short circuit human wisdom to come up with an inerrant Bible. GDR writes: And in this context we are limiting scripture to what is found in the modern canon..(NIV,NKJV,KJV) Mark Twain can take a seat and write more about Tom and Huck.
I agree that all scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. Firstly then, why would Jesus have to correct what had been written. As I have pointed out to you before Jesus refers to passages from the Torah as being written by Moses and then corrects them. Jesus knew what the Law said but elaborated based on the premise that the truth is written on human hearts and is not found in a scroll.
I agree that God breathes life into the scriptures. He speaks to us through the Scriptures. The scriptures are a huge part of the Christian faith but if we start to believe that the man Moses, or for that matter any other Biblical author wrote specifically as directed by God then we have to conclude that death by public stoning is ok and that Jesus got it wrong. Or as some critics do, conclude that Jesus was a mythical character in a book...as was Moses. Their basic argument is that human wisdom,fable, and story change over time at the whims of the authors and/or storytellers. I disagree based on observation. I ask who said it. I ask to whom was it being said. I ask what the cultural context was. Of course, I believe that Jesus not only existed and was alive but that He is alive today and that the comforter---the Holy Spirit---can speak through any one of us.
jar writes: I weigh my answers carefully when I present them here. Consensus would suggest that there is no way that i can prove such an answer so to attempt to do so merely digs me a bigger hole to crawl out of. I also must consider my audience.
You claim that you know god and commune with god and I ask "How do you know that it is god you are communing with?" and you never answer. Kbertsche,replying to GDR writes: Your point would be a lot stronger if you argued from a passage that was actually in the original manuscripts. As you probably know, the story of the woman caught in adultery is thought by most scholars to be a later addition to the text. Those who hold to inerrancy claim that it only applies to the original autographs, which did not contain this account. If we are arguing that absolute moral truth can come through one human to another, the point of whether a manuscript is original or not only pertains to the estimated human lifespan of the purported speaker. If we conclude that the stories were and are "made up" we have a different argument. Then we have a third argument.
GDR writes: What is truth? Is truth relative or absolute? Is the truths gleaned from the Bible any more special than Mark Twain and the Perfect Stranger? It can’t be both. Again....what is truth?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26
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GDR Member Posts: 6223 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 3.8 |
kbertsche writes: Your point would be a lot stronger if you argued from a passage that was actually in the original manuscripts. As you probably know, the story of the woman caught in adultery is thought by most scholars to be a later addition to the text. Those who hold to inerrancy claim that it only applies to the original autographs, which did not contain this account. So, in other words the Bible is inerrant except for where Jesus says it isn't. Here then is another case from Matthew 19 where Jesus says that the OT got it wrong.
quote: ...or maybe this from Matthew 5 should not be counted as part of the canon either.
quote: Then there is the matter of squaring Jesus' command to love your enemy as opposed to the OT orders where Yahweh supposedly commands genocide and communal stoning to death for minor offences. It can't be done. Again, it is either Jesus as the embodiment of the Word of God, or an inerrant Bible. It is Christianity or Biblianity. You can't have both. An inerrant Bible is simply one of the false idols that the Bible itself talks about.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6223 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 3.8
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Phat writes: I agree, but just because someone says that the Holy Spirit led them does not mean that He actually did. I suggest that is also the case where the writers of the OT books claim that Yahweh told them that Yahweh commanded genocide and public stoning.
Of course, I believe that Jesus not only existed and was alive but that He is alive today and that the comforter---the Holy Spirit---can speak through any one of us. Phat writes:
There is an ultimate truth but not we can't have absolute certainty of that truth, and so we go on faith that we have it right. I have faith that the Bible is the narrative of the progressive revelation that comes from God reaching out to mankind, with it climaxing in Jesus. With Jesus as a lens we can discern what actually did come from God and what didn't. I believe that The Bible is a library of books that God uses to reach out to us for teaching, rebuking, correcting etc. What is truth? Is truth relative or absolute? Is the truths gleaned from the Bible any more special than Mark Twain and the Perfect Stranger?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2390 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
GDR writes:
No, of course not. The Bible is inerrant in its original manuscripts. Any later additions, changes, and explanatory notes are NOT inerrant.
So, in other words the Bible is inerrant except for where Jesus says it isn't. Here then is another case from Matthew 19 where Jesus says that the OT got it wrong. You may think that this is a "cop-out", but it is not. There is very good agreement among biblical scholars on later additions to the text. This is determined by objectively comparing the earliest manuscripts to later ones."Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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jar Member (Idle past 98 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
kbertsche writes: No, of course not. The Bible is inerrant in its original manuscripts. Any later additions, changes, and explanatory notes are NOT inerrant. But there are NO original manuscripts.
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ringo Member (Idle past 670 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
kbertsche writes:
Yes, 2 Peter calls Paul's epistles "scriptures" - i.e. writings. What else would they be called? But 2 Peter doesn't explicitly call Paul's epistles "inspired by God", does it? My question isn't whether the early church considered Paul's writings inspired. It's whether Paul himself considered them inspired when he wrote to Timothy.
But according to 2 Peter, Paul's writings were also considered by the early church to be Scripture:
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ringo Member (Idle past 670 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
What means are you using?
Of course we had no reporter on the scene, camera and mic in hand...so we must use other ways to judge Pauls integrity and mental stability.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1703 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You may think that this is a "cop-out", but it is not. There is very good agreement among biblical scholars on later additions to the text. This is determined by objectively comparing the earliest manuscripts to later ones. I agree with you in principle of course. I believe it quite possible to reconstruct the originals from the collection of old manuscripts available today. But not if you are working from the wrong collection of old manuscripts, and from what you are saying you do accept the wrong collection as authentic. That is, you accept the current scholarship about the history of the manuscripts that comes down from Westcott and Hort, which is understandable since the major seminaries and a lot of good teachers and preachers do also. I'm no scholar of course, and I'm sure you know tons more about these issues than I do or ever will, but I got my mind changed some years ago by reading some of Dean John Burgon's book "The Revision Revised" and some of his "Last Twelve Verses of Mark" plus some other books, mostly by KJV-onlies, although I don't consider myself one of them. I consider myself a "Burgonian" I suppose. He was a contemporary of Westcott and Hort's and their better as a scholar, who criticized them for replacing the Traditional Greek text with some Greek manuscripts known already by the Church to be corrupt, also for their lousy Greek and lousy English. The lousy English I can judge for myself, the rest requires me to trust Burgon and the others who agree with him, and Burgon himself particularly impresses me with his knowledge and integrity. I started a blog on the subject some years ago (The Great Bible Hoax of 1881) where I collected bits of information about the issue. Basically, the idea that the "Church" made additions to the text down the centuries is Westcott and Hort's own totally made-up theory without a shred of evidence for it. Their substituted Greek texts are known for what is left out of them, passages historically revered by Christians, such as the one you mention about the woman taken in adultery. There are even huge obvious gaps in the text of their preferred mss where something used to be, such as the last twelve verses of Mark in Sinaiticus. This is a huge hoax they pulled off on the Church, and it's continued to deceive for over 130 years. Consider just for starters that the accusation that the Church made additions to the text is an accusation of tampering with God's word against the very commandment of God not to add to it. It's amazing how they got away with all that. The Church must have come seriously under God's displeasure for all that to happen, and we are no doubt still under God's judgment. I wish I could be an instrument to change anyone's mind about the validity of the revision of 1881 but there's such an array of powerhouse Christian "scholars" and teachers against my point of view it would take a miracle. I do recommend the documentaries made by Chris Pinto, particularly his three lengthy documentaries about the history of the Bible, and his latest, that just came out, that I haven't even seen yet (I'm sure it's out in the mailbox, I just don't get out there very often), is titled Bridge to Babylon and is specifically focused on what Westcott and Hort did. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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GDR Member Posts: 6223 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 3.8 |
kbertsche writes: No, of course not. The Bible is inerrant in its original manuscripts. Any later additions, changes, and explanatory notes are NOT inerrant.You may think that this is a "cop-out", but it is not. There is very good agreement among biblical scholars on later additions to the text. This is determined by objectively comparing the earliest manuscripts to later ones. So I assume you think that the other examples I gave weren't supposed to be included in the Gospels either, or did those who put the canon together get it wrong?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2390 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
jar writes:
There are no extant original manuscripts at the present time. But there WERE original manuscripts once. And there are numerous copies and fragments from various dates, some quite early. But there are NO original manuscripts."Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2390 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
ringo writes:
Not just "writings", but associated with "the other Scriptures". This was a technical term for the OT, which WAS considered to be inspired by God. So yes, the early church seems to have viewed Paul's writings as divinely inspired, just like they did the OT. Yes, 2 Peter calls Paul's epistles "scriptures" - i.e. writings. What else would they be called? But 2 Peter doesn't explicitly call Paul's epistles "inspired by God", does it?"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2390 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
GDR writes:
Why do you assume this? Do you really think there are objective, textual reasons that your other examples were not in the original autographs? So I assume you think that the other examples I gave weren't supposed to be included in the Gospels either, or did those who put the canon together get it wrong?"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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jar Member (Idle past 98 days) Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: |
No one questions that there were originals but I see no way we can assume to know what those originals said.
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