What is a True Christian?

So in your opinion, unity is to some degree achieved through accepting the Nicene Creed...if not what is scripture. The contrarian minority would argue that there is no proof or evidence that Jesus was born of a Virgin. They even trot out their scriptures (as defined and/or interpreted by them) to prove that the Holy Spirit (as stated in the Nicene Creed) is illogical.Now before you say anything, I can readily accept that Jesus while on earth was human. How many humans can be born of a virgin? Do you go with the Creed on this one or do you go with your logic, reason, and reality?

So it is, as I said, a human decision as to what is scripture.If there is some Holy Spirit actually guiding the process, why has that Holy Spirit been unable to get anything as simple as a definitive list of what is and is not scriptural accepted?"So it is, as I said, a human decision as to what is scripture.Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed quote

The Nicene Creed is not scripture. One clue might be that it is a Creed. But again, even the Nicene Creed is a human creation that evolved over time.But Phat, that is only within a given club, a set of guidelines for that club. It says nothing about what is, rather only what the club says they believe. Well, I have to go with reason, logic and reality.

His next question should be, "How are you defining scripture?" As you seem to understand, Paul was probably referring primarily to the Old Testament (and probably some non-canonical books) but not anything that he had written.Of course Timothy and you should test what Paul wrote for integrity and look for evidence. You should always look for evidence. If an apple can hit me on the head, I'll wait for it to happen. I'm not going to believe that an apple has hit me until it does.But your point of view seems to be that apples can't fall - i.e. there can't be evidence. In that case, why should I believe what you believe? Why not the Hindu gods or the native American gods?

Timothy was a companion and trusted younger men-tee of Pauls. Why would Timothy even think of testing Paul's integrity? And I am certain that Timothy saw and observed a lot of evidence.Do you test the integrity of those whom you hand money to? Do you have any close friends whom you regularly test for integrity?Perhaps you have a point concerning what you and I should do...since we don't know Paul directly.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

So in your opinion Jesus was not born of a virgin. OK, got it. I know your arguments somewhat well, and I know you emphasize Jesus life rather than his death, burial, and resurrection.I also know the arguments concerning what the Bible says versus what many theologians teach and/or were taught that it says. What If God was one of us?Thats quite a contrarian chapter of the Episcopalian Club! I realize that the old joke says that there may be a chance that in any given congregation you may find two whom agree!So Jesus while on earth was not simply human, he was just like us...a sinner who makes mistakes. Do I understand you correctly? Do I understand you to go with the logic,reason,and reality of those scholars who have systematically redefined the whole belief that Jesus was different from other humans? That He was as capable of falling short as you or I? That He had nary a clue who God was?(While human?) Are you straying that far from the Creed? If so I think you are WRONG.The whole impact, influence, and relevance of early Christianity in the shaping of modern culture was not all Holy and Shiny and Sinless. That I will readily admit. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.I firmly believe that if Jesus were simply as human as you or I, He would have no more of a footnote in History than did George Washington.I suppose that an argument could be made that Mohammed was a mere human and yet had a similar global impact.I also see how it could be argued that Jesus was who we wanted Him to be and was a product of marketing and lobbying. I stand by my belief, however. Scripture and other biblical writings have value because God was made human. Not because another anonymous baby was born and became another teacher.Edited by Phat, : added rant, once I awoke for a new day.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Yes, I do believe Jesus while on earth was simply human, he was just like us...a sinner who makes mistakes. Nor do I see that as straying from the Nicene Creed. In fact I believe the Nicene Creed supports my position.The rest was more about your beliefs than mine and I have never tried to get you to change your beliefs.

Because Paul was human. If you mean homeless people, of course I don't. They're not trying to sell me anything, so integrity doesn't enter into it. If you mean business people, of course I do. It's buyer beware, isn't it? Yes, I have friends who - to put it politely - you can't believe everything they say. In some cases they're joking; in some cases they may be deluding themselves; in some cases they may be trying to delude me. So yes, I have to test what they say.

What does the evidence show?Just because someone claims a name does not make them part of a family.

The evidence shows Hitler was a Christian, recognized by several major Christian churches as a Christian, claiming to be a Christian, using scripture to support and justify his behavior.Phat, this whole thread, this whole topic has shown that there is no real definition of what a Christian is, rather there are a whole bunch of definitions all based on the individual biases of an individual, a group or an era.What Hitler did was no different than what American Presidents have done in the past, American Presidents recognized as devout Christians.It was no worse than our pogrom against the Native Americans, our forced removal of them from their homes and lands, our destruction of their cultures, or confiscation of their property and wealth, our constant failure to honor the Treaties we made and forced on them.

Churches are full of people who talk the talk. In addition, many politicians claim to be Christians. Speechwriters historically have used scripture references in speeches.You seem to think the evidence consists merely of being recognized as a member of the club.But of course this goes along with your whole belief system.

It is not related to my belief system but rather the conclusion based on all the evidence.What things might define a Christian?A belief that Jesus is the son of God? Well, then anyone who says they believe that qualifies as a Christian until you can come up with a valid test of beliefs.Membership in a recognized chapter of Club Christian? Then anyone who is a member of a recognized chapter of Club Christian qualifies as a Christian until you can come up with a valid test of accreditation.Someone who behaves like Jesus commanded? Then those who behave like Jesus commanded even if NOT a member of a chapter (recognized or unrecognized) of Club Christian qualifies as a Christian.But there are really few things that can be used to determine membership. As you say, many claim membership. You claim membership. Faith claims membership. The Pope claims membership.What objective criteria do you suggest that should be used to test such claims?The body of evidence says that Christians as a group do not behave any differently than any other social demographic.The body of evidence says that Christians have been at least as violent and intolerant and more successful at genocide than any other group in history.The body of evidence shows that Christianity was spread mostly by politics, power and commerce and not by Jesus message.The body of evidence shows Christians have been creating definitions of what makes a Christian almost since the beginning and so there are thousands of chapters in Club Christian with each writing their own Club Standards and denying the legitimacy of members in all other chapters.I actually think it is not even necessary to be a member of a chapter of Club Christian, particularly a recognized Chapter. I am willing to agree that if you as an example think you are a Christian then I will accept you as a Christian.But if you have a criteria to suggest, present it for consideration. The evidence shows though that such criteria most often are simply meant as a way to exclude those who might disagree with the position of the criteria presenter.

Mort deHann put it rather well:

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"There is a vast difference between coming to Jesus for salvation and coming after Jesus for service. Coming to Christ makes one a believer, while coming after Christ makes one a disciple. All believers are not disciples. To become a believer one accepts the invitation of the Gospel, to be a disciple one obeys the challenge to a life of dedicated service and separation. Salvation comes through the sacrifice of Christ; discipleship comes only by sacrifice of self and surrender to His call for devoted service. Salvation is free, but discipleship involves paying the price of a separated walk. Salvation can't be lost because it depends upon God's faithfulness, but discipleship can be lost because it depends upon our faithfulness." DeHaan, M. R. Hebrews.

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Note that salvation is a free gift---as you have stated---personally I dont agree with the idea that GOD simply chooses everyone. I believe that everyone is not damned foreknowingly, however.Discipleship means doing which you also have stated.Your whole belief about there being more of other groups--including atheists--in heaven than many Christians would only make sense if God chose everybody. Where I disagree with you is that I believe that we must choose Him...He is the door through whom we enter.

Perhaps you find meaning in that but I really can't see it at all. Nor does it have any relevance I can see to the topic or discussion. But Phat, I am simply repeating what Jesus is said to have said?

What kind of family rejects somebody who wants to be a member?