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Author Topic:   Why is belief necessary?
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 94 (155695)
11-04-2004 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Gilgamesh
11-04-2004 1:44 AM


Check the signature.

"Atheists are just like theists; they find it highly disturbing when you try to weaken their faith." Myself, a couple minutes ago

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Gilgamesh, posted 11-04-2004 1:44 AM Gilgamesh has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by crashfrog, posted 11-04-2004 1:51 AM RustyShackelford has replied

  
Morte
Member (Idle past 6103 days)
Posts: 140
From: Texas
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 17 of 94 (155696)
11-04-2004 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by RustyShackelford
11-04-2004 1:30 AM


Re: ...Just save yourself some time and skip to the last paragraph.
quote:
I believe a person CAN believe anything he chooses to (as the above demonstrates)
Not really - I simply cannot comprehend the idea of nonexistence. My brain comes up with an error message and I have to CTRL+ALT+DELETE or just let it crash when that happens. Try explaining that to your boss when he asks you why you're asleep during a meeting...
Seriously, it's not that I want to - it would make much more sense with the rest of my views if I didn't believe in an afterlife, certainly. But I couldn't believe otherwise unless I had a sudden epiphany or someone else explained nonexistence to me in a way that made sense to me; in other words, I cannot force myself to believe it.
As for your other post, well, I pretty much agree with what crashfrog said. Having once believed in God (again, I didn't make myself stop believing - the circumstances just happened to be such that I could no longer honestly say I did), I have to say that it was easier for me then, but it just wasn't true when I thought of things such as this.
Trust me, when I say I can't make myself believe something, I mean it. 2 plus 2 does not equal 3 no matter how many times I repeat that thought in my mind. But feel free to try it yourself - tell me when you get there, and when you do, please tell me what 4 times 7 equals. While you're at it, try to convince yourself that God doesn't exist and you'll see how impossible it is for me to persuade myself He does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 1:30 AM RustyShackelford has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 2:00 AM Morte has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 18 of 94 (155697)
11-04-2004 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by RustyShackelford
11-04-2004 1:48 AM


Isn't it the soul of self-aggrandizement, Jason, to quote yourself in your own signature?

"What gets me is all the mean things people say about Secular Humanism without even taking the time to read some of our basic scriptures, such as the Bill of Rights or Omni magazine." - Barbara Ehrenreich

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 1:48 AM RustyShackelford has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 2:02 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Morte
Member (Idle past 6103 days)
Posts: 140
From: Texas
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 19 of 94 (155701)
11-04-2004 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Gilgamesh
11-04-2004 1:41 AM


Re: ...Just save yourself some time and skip to the last paragraph.
quote:
If you try to lead a good life as defined by yourself and the people that matter most to you, I can't see how you can go much wrong in this or the next life.
I was speaking cynically/satirically - I really meant it when I said just see the last paragraph, I simply find the study of beliefs (philosophy and religion) quite interesting and have a tendency to overtalk. I prefer the word "loquaciousness", myself.
{Added in edit: Also, I think I've been reading too much Shakespeare, because I just reread that post and I certainly don't recall typing the word "pond'rous".}
quote:
Don't eat too many chips, yummy as they may be.
Don't worry, I've got a high, uh, chip tolerance.
This message has been edited by Morte, 11-04-2004 02:01 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Gilgamesh, posted 11-04-2004 1:41 AM Gilgamesh has not replied

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 94 (155704)
11-04-2004 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Morte
11-04-2004 1:49 AM


Re: ...Just save yourself some time and skip to the last paragraph.
Not really - I simply cannot comprehend the idea of nonexistence.
I don't believe this. There was a point in time, prior to a few years ago, that you DIDN'T exist.........so you know that it's possible for you to not exist. You can also get an idea of what non-existance is like every time you fall into dreamless sleep........
Seriously, it's not that I want to
I'm pretty sure you directly stated the contrary in your first post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Morte, posted 11-04-2004 1:49 AM Morte has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Morte, posted 11-04-2004 2:15 AM RustyShackelford has replied
 Message 32 by happy_atheist, posted 11-04-2004 7:23 AM RustyShackelford has not replied

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 94 (155705)
11-04-2004 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by crashfrog
11-04-2004 1:51 AM


Isn't it the soul of self-aggrandizement, Jason, to quote yourself in your own signature?
This is the second time I've been addressed as this "Jason" fellow.......it's quite perplexing.
But, to answer your question, yes, it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by crashfrog, posted 11-04-2004 1:51 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 94 (155706)
11-04-2004 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by crashfrog
11-04-2004 1:47 AM


Hoo boy, anything but, as I've repeatedly stated for the past year. If I could be a theist, I'd be a lot happier, especially about misfortune.
When I find an atheist or agnostic that's actually prayed and fasted and denied the flesh and still doesn't believe, THEN I'll believe in the atheist that wants to be a theist........but if you don't call to God, how do you expect him to answer you? If you don't seek, how can you find?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by crashfrog, posted 11-04-2004 1:47 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by crashfrog, posted 11-04-2004 2:10 AM RustyShackelford has replied
 Message 74 by nator, posted 11-08-2004 9:26 AM RustyShackelford has not replied

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 94 (155707)
11-04-2004 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by crashfrog
11-04-2004 1:47 AM


Oh, and just so you know, "many different reasons" is not an answer to my question. Why don't you give me just one, for instance.
Humanistic vanity.

"Atheists are just like theists; they find it highly disturbing when you try to weaken their faith." Myself, a couple minutes ago

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by crashfrog, posted 11-04-2004 1:47 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by crashfrog, posted 11-04-2004 2:11 AM RustyShackelford has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 24 of 94 (155708)
11-04-2004 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by RustyShackelford
11-04-2004 2:07 AM


When I find an atheist or agnostic that's actually prayed and fasted and denied the flesh and still doesn't believe, THEN I'll believe in the atheist that wants to be a theist.....
Been there, done that.
Of course, I predict you'll tell me I'm lying, or something, because "if you had done it right, God would have came to you" or whatever.
If you don't seek, how can you find?
Seeked. Didn't find. That's why I'm an atheist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 2:07 AM RustyShackelford has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 2:31 AM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 25 of 94 (155709)
11-04-2004 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by RustyShackelford
11-04-2004 2:08 AM


Humanistic vanity.
"Vanity" to me is the arrogant presumption that God created an infinite universe simply as a playground for one insignificant species.
Atheism is the opposite of vanity.

"What gets me is all the mean things people say about Secular Humanism without even taking the time to read some of our basic scriptures, such as the Bill of Rights or Omni magazine." - Barbara Ehrenreich

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 2:08 AM RustyShackelford has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 2:33 AM crashfrog has replied

  
Morte
Member (Idle past 6103 days)
Posts: 140
From: Texas
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 26 of 94 (155710)
11-04-2004 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by RustyShackelford
11-04-2004 2:00 AM


Re: ...Just save yourself some time and skip to the last paragraph.
quote:
I don't believe this. There was a point in time, prior to a few years ago, that you DIDN'T exist.........so you know that it's possible for you to not exist. You can also get an idea of what non-existance is like every time you fall into dreamless sleep
But I don't really, because when I wake up I don't remember anything about the sensation - there is no sensation. I can't just imagine that. Like I said, it doesn't make sense to most, but there you go, it's as simple as that. I can't "picture" nonexistence. Every time I've ever gone to sleep, I've always woken up...
Furthermore, I'm not so sure - if reincarnation turned out to be true, perhaps I wasn't nonexistent before this stage was born. ~Shrugs~
Oh, and continuing on our earlier theme, try to believe it and see if you can make yourself. I certainly wouldn't be able to.
quote:
I'm pretty sure you directly stated the contrary in your first post.
Let me clarify - I'd like to think that there is an afterlife, but that is not what makes me believe in it. I'd like to believe in a God because that would mean there is an afterlife to look forward to, but I have yet to find one that makes sense to me and doesn't clash with evidence, other beliefs, or the morality I believe in, so I don't. Therefore, since I don't believe in a God, the most logical succession would be not to believe in an afterlife - so that would make things simpler, but I do not do so either. Sometimes things are complex. The two desires conflict each other (which, since I have a feeling you'll try to argue it, can happen; for example, a student might have a desire to be a good person but also to fit in with a less-than-good crowd by committing acts of vandalism or hazing).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 2:00 AM RustyShackelford has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 2:37 AM Morte has replied

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 94 (155713)
11-04-2004 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by crashfrog
11-04-2004 2:10 AM


Been there, done that.
Of course, I predict you'll tell me I'm lying, or something, because "if you had done it right, God would have came to you" or whatever.
Tell me about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by crashfrog, posted 11-04-2004 2:10 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by crashfrog, posted 11-04-2004 10:50 AM RustyShackelford has not replied

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 94 (155714)
11-04-2004 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by crashfrog
11-04-2004 2:11 AM


"Vanity" to me is the arrogant presumption that God created an infinite universe simply as a playground for one insignificant species.
But this is what many scientists believe......that there's a good probability that we're the only sentience in our universe.
Atheism is the opposite of vanity.
Not true. You think you can destroy God with the logic of the human mind......that's vanity if I've ever heard it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by crashfrog, posted 11-04-2004 2:11 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by CK, posted 11-04-2004 3:08 AM RustyShackelford has not replied
 Message 31 by happy_atheist, posted 11-04-2004 7:15 AM RustyShackelford has not replied
 Message 33 by Parasomnium, posted 11-04-2004 7:42 AM RustyShackelford has not replied
 Message 35 by crashfrog, posted 11-04-2004 11:02 AM RustyShackelford has not replied

  
RustyShackelford 
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 94 (155715)
11-04-2004 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Morte
11-04-2004 2:15 AM


Re: ...Just save yourself some time and skip to the last paragraph.
Let me clarify - I'd like to think that there is an afterlife, but that is not what makes me believe in it. I'd like to believe in a God because that would mean there is an afterlife to look forward to, but I have yet to find one that makes sense to me and doesn't clash with evidence, other beliefs, or the morality I believe in, so I don't. Therefore, since I don't believe in a God, the most logical succession would be not to believe in an afterlife - so that would make things simpler, but I do not do so either. Sometimes things are complex. The two desires conflict each other
So, you don't believe in any god, because no god conforms to your idealized concept of God........but you like the afterlife part, so you keep that.
Sounds like believing waht you want to believe to me......

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Morte, posted 11-04-2004 2:15 AM Morte has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Morte, posted 11-04-2004 5:20 PM RustyShackelford has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 30 of 94 (155723)
11-04-2004 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by RustyShackelford
11-04-2004 2:33 AM


quote:
But this is what many scientists believe......that there's a good probability that we're the only sentience in our universe.
And many don't Jason - what's your point?
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 11-04-2004 03:09 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by RustyShackelford, posted 11-04-2004 2:33 AM RustyShackelford has not replied

  
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