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Author Topic:   Religion v Spirituality
Larni
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 3 of 161 (449034)
01-16-2008 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by pelican
01-16-2008 12:13 AM


I actually hate the word spiritual. It gets bandied about the place a great deal in the wrong context.
Spirituality implies some etheric 'spirit' that is somehow distinct from the physical world: much like religion implies some deity (in most cases) somehow distinct from the physical world.
Eigther way you cut it both invoke something distinct from the physical world.
Knowing yourself and the world has nothing to do with spirit; it is simply being self aware and having an ability to be minfull of your self and environment.
Neither spirituality or religiousity are required.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by pelican, posted 01-16-2008 12:13 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 01-16-2008 9:53 AM Larni has replied
 Message 7 by pelican, posted 01-16-2008 6:42 PM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 12 of 161 (449196)
01-17-2008 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
01-16-2008 9:53 AM


Re: A Matter Of Perspective
Phat writes:
Whether or not a spirit or the Spirit exists independently of human imagination and cultural creativity is something we don't collectively know, however.
Given that there is no evidence that it does exist it is hard to conclude that the Spirit does exist.
Unless you have a good reason to believe otherwise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 01-16-2008 9:53 AM Phat has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 13 of 161 (449197)
01-17-2008 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by pelican
01-16-2008 6:42 PM


Heinrik writes:
I find your obsevations very interesting but wonder why you HATE the word spiritual?
Quite so. My use of the word hate comes from the many people who use 'spiritual' to mean some nebulus magical woohoo. It's the people who say "I'm a very spiritual person" at parties that you edge away from.
Heinrik writes:
Required for what? We cannot deny their existence.
Required to live a decent life. I don't deny religion; belief in gods is well documented. Spirituality, on the other hand is a meaningless buzz word.
Heinrik writes:
but does that mean spirituality does not exist?
Show me positive evidence that it does.
Heinrik writes:
if spirituality is taken to be all that exists that is unseen
If by unseen you mean undetectable, how do you know it is there? If you can detect it it is hardly unseen, is it?
Heinrik writes:
For example, is the feeling of hate physical? Are any of our emotions physical? Are our minds physical? Are our thoughts, consciousness, subconsciousness, beliefs, egos, perceptions, awareness, imaginations, dreams etc, physical?
All these are physical and have physical indicators that can be measured (often by me) in the course of psychological assessments.
Heinrik writes:
They all exist but none can be seen. Could the whole of our unseen, combined, constitute our spirit? Is it not a separate part of us that is housed by our bodies?
See above.
Heinrik writes:
The reason I began this thread was in hope that we could come to a sensible working definition of the emerging spirituality.
Go for it. If you can point to, define and evidence it I will be amazed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by pelican, posted 01-16-2008 6:42 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by pelican, posted 01-17-2008 5:48 AM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 14 of 161 (449198)
01-17-2008 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by pelican
01-16-2008 7:05 PM


Re: A Matter Of Perspective
Heinrik writes:
Is there any other way taking into account ALL of our senses, not just the physical ones?
This is an example of woohoo thinking.
All of your senses are physical. We have no non-physical senses. They all detect something in the physical world whether it be electromagnitism or shockwaves propagated through the air: all physical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by pelican, posted 01-16-2008 7:05 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by pelican, posted 01-17-2008 5:59 AM Larni has replied
 Message 19 by pelican, posted 01-17-2008 6:01 AM Larni has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 16 of 161 (449202)
01-17-2008 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by BMG
01-17-2008 4:44 AM


Re: "My" two cents
Infixion writes:
This reminds me of what a World Religions professor of mine claimed that spirituality was: something that is in all of us; a "fire of restlessness", a burning and unsettling feeling that there are things that we have yet to understand, and may never quite grasp(the classic being, what is the meaning to life?).
How's that different from curiosity or wanderlust?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by BMG, posted 01-17-2008 4:44 AM BMG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-17-2008 9:11 AM Larni has replied
 Message 33 by BMG, posted 01-17-2008 2:49 PM Larni has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 20 of 161 (449219)
01-17-2008 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by pelican
01-17-2008 5:48 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
Heinrik writes:
I don't believe I have a physical organ called hate!
Nor do I. Nice that we agree.
Heinrik writes:
If you believe psychological is physical, there's no point, is there?
When we experience hate (or any emotion) our bodies undergo physical/behvioural/cognitive changes that we can measure. This is the realm of science not 'spirit'.
Still waiting for your definition of spirit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by pelican, posted 01-17-2008 5:48 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by pelican, posted 01-17-2008 7:46 AM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 21 of 161 (449220)
01-17-2008 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by pelican
01-17-2008 5:59 AM


Re: A Matter Of Perspective
Heinrik writes:
The fact that we can only observe them from a feeling proves they are not physical.
If I understand you correctly you are saying that the energy changes we percieve with our senses are non physical and thus fit a concept of 'spirit'.
If this is the case you are wrong. E=MC2. Energy/Matter, Matter/Energy.
Energy is not spirit.
Btw: lets drop the woohoo thinking. I should not have used it and would hate for us to get hung up on it.
Edited by Larni, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by pelican, posted 01-17-2008 5:59 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by pelican, posted 01-17-2008 7:48 AM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 25 of 161 (449231)
01-17-2008 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by pelican
01-17-2008 7:46 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
Heinrik writes:
Do you think hate or do you feel it?
You think hateful thoughts.
These trigger noradrenaline, adrenaline to pass into the blood stream and begin the fight or flight reaction. In the case of hate there are cognitions around the hated object (normally revolving around the removal of the physical sensations (autonomic arousal) the hated object triggers).
Then action is selected to remove the autonomic arousal.
If the action is successful in removing the autonomic arousal the negative cogntions stop; along with the production of the noradrenaline etc.
Then the body goes back to a rest state.
Try looking up the 'Four Systems Model of Emotion'. The above is a very truncated version of that.
So the answer is: both and more besides. Emotion is complex but to write it off as 'spirit' is to stop trying to understand it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by pelican, posted 01-17-2008 7:46 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by pelican, posted 01-17-2008 7:06 PM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 26 of 161 (449232)
01-17-2008 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by pelican
01-17-2008 7:48 AM


Re: A Matter Of Perspective
Heinrik writes:
Energy and matter are two different things.
Did you miss my reference to e=mc2
Mass—energy equivalence - Wikipedia
Still waiting for a difinition of spirit that is not bogus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by pelican, posted 01-17-2008 7:48 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by pelican, posted 01-17-2008 7:24 PM Larni has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 28 of 161 (449237)
01-17-2008 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by macaroniandcheese
01-17-2008 9:11 AM


Re: "My" two cents
Then to use the world spiritual as a shorthand for curiosity and wanderlust inappropriate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-17-2008 9:11 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-17-2008 9:20 AM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 29 of 161 (449238)
01-17-2008 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
01-17-2008 8:16 AM


Re: Knowable spirituality
Phat writes:
Have you not heard of Wilhelm Reich, Alexander Lowen, and Bioenergetics?
Not sure whether these ideas are on the level, Phat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 01-17-2008 8:16 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 31 of 161 (449243)
01-17-2008 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by macaroniandcheese
01-17-2008 9:20 AM


Re: "My" two cents
bren writes:
curiosity (that is excessive curiosity) and wanderlust are subset of that which makes up spirituality. just like christianity isn't the sum total of religion.
Xianity is a religion.
Curiosity and wanderlust are not a spirituality.
What gets me is that everyone and their dog has thir own version of what 'spirituality' means.
Normally it's just a whooly catch all word for nebulous etheric concepts that hark back to the soul and use words like 'positive' and 'negative' energy, vibrations, crystals and the like.
On the other hand if you are using spiritual in a different way I would be interested to hear your definition.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-17-2008 9:20 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-17-2008 10:12 AM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 34 of 161 (449294)
01-17-2008 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by macaroniandcheese
01-17-2008 10:12 AM


Re: "My" two cents
Bren writes:
the problem is that people tend to define a thing by it's current, most popular, most vocal incarnation. spirituality is no more defined by new age wooo wooo than christianity is defined by mandaean gnostics.
I know I'm kind of tilting at windmills on this one a little but I can't get the idea of whooly minded hippies sounding off about being so 'spiritual' as if that means something special out of my head.
Ill put my axe and grindstone away, for now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-17-2008 10:12 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-17-2008 3:18 PM Larni has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 41 of 161 (449599)
01-18-2008 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by pelican
01-17-2008 7:06 PM


Re: Knowable spirituality
Heinrik writes:
What is your idea of spirit?
Untill there is any evidence of spirit my idea of spirit is tha there is no such thing.
Apart from booze, that is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by pelican, posted 01-17-2008 7:06 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by pelican, posted 01-18-2008 9:13 PM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 44 of 161 (449865)
01-19-2008 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by pelican
01-18-2008 9:13 PM


Re: Knowable spirituality
If there is no such thing as spirit than it cannot be linked in any way to religion which is real.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by pelican, posted 01-18-2008 9:13 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by pelican, posted 01-19-2008 6:31 PM Larni has replied

  
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