"Evidence and Faith"

They are summaries of what you presented. You still avoid answering any of the questions raised.You are not holding a discussion, you are preaching. How is that relevant to the question? Why do you say that when it refutes the passage you quoted?Two people do exactly the same things, one alleges it is for the God he creates called Jesus, the other for the God he creates called Sharrie.The acts are exactly the same. Jesus said that he would value the acts the same? How do you know it is God?What does reaching out to a person even mean?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

NJ wrote: Any of those would be good to look at, but are much too large and off topic for this thread. I’ll comment on them, especially because it is logical problems like these (before I had even really studied the Bible much), that resulted in my leaving Christianity. Reading the Bible clinched it only after that. I don’t think that makes sense. First of all , the no God=no moral law doesn’t follow, as Ringo pointed out. Evolution predicts a strong moral faculty, hence the whole field of evolutionary psychology (read Evolutionary psychology - Wikipedia).There are plenty of other problems too, like God’s clearly and repeatedly immoral behavior in the Bible, and many others. A related question is whether good is an objective reality, or just simply defined as “what God wants”. If you take the former, then you have to conclude that God is not all good, and that a person with moral integrity must speak up against the immoral God of the Bible. If you take the latter, then saying “God is Good” ceases to have any meaning, since it is simply saying “God does what God does”. Well, we don’t necessarily struggle with them - I find the answers given by a Naturalistic worldview to be clear, demonstrable, and beneficial. Let’s compare:Naturalistic worldview:Origin - we evolved from a continually creative universe. We are the descendents of thousands of beings that survived against all odds, who succeeded in life and in love. These links of love bond us to the ancient supernovae that forged the atoms in our bodies. What other origin could possibly be more rich?Meaning - The evolution of the universe has continually given rise to greater and more complex systems. We stand at the dawn of a new day - the first time we know of that the universe evolved the ability to plan it’s own future. Your children and mine for generations to come over thousands of years will live the consequences tomorrow of the decisions we make today. What other worldview could possibly give life more meaning?Morality - We carry the brains of our Pleistocene ancestors, filled with both good drives (altruism, parental love, etc.) and bad drives (envy, lust, greed, etc.). All had a clear benefit to the reproductive success of our ancestors, hence their presence within us today. Understanding these drives openly is the most effective way of using them all for the good. Evolutionary psychology is the owner’s manual to our brains. We can now use this understanding to control our basic drives to benefit the world of tomorrow - for all our children over the coming millennia, as well as all life on earth. If we don’t accept this moral charge, no one will, since there is no God to fix things. It’s up to us.Destiny - The fruit of the universe has been continually greater every time a new system arises - such as the first heavy atoms, cells, metazoans, eyes, vertebrates, humans, tribes, cities, and nations. We can help drag the dream of the future into existence, and our atoms will continue cycling through our children and the world of tomorrow.Now, compare with the Biblical literalist (not including the moderate Christian) responses:Origin - we were made as playthings by a genocidal, petty, narcissistic despot who lumped dirt into a design that is clearly incompetent in many ways.Meaning - With an omnipotent God in charge of everything, we must focus on worship and obeisance, since the world isn’t in our hands anyway. We can’t be sure of what he wants, since the thousands of Christian groups often get different conclusions from the same unreliable and self-contradictory text that this God apparently gave us thousands of years ago. However, we get to spend eternity in Heaven watching some of our friends and loved ones get tortured eternally in Hell if we can get into heaven. This all gives my life meaning.Morality - Well, what to make of that? We can follow some of the OT laws, but not others, since the ten commandments are fashionable but the “thigh rot test” isn’t. Or we can go around and around trying to get a clear morality out a book that has been used to justify slavery, mass murder, infanticide, subjugation of women, gay-bashing, war and worse for centuries. The fact that Christians can’t agree on what the Bible says is moral and what isn’t makes this tricky too, as does the fact that God orders genocide, demands human sacrifice, kills millions of innocent people himself, tortures more people than he “saves”, and praises a murdering, wife-stealing despot as “most blessed”. Go figure.Destiny - Let’s see, if I go to Hell (regardless of whether that is based on faith or works), I’ll be tortured for eternity. On the other hand, If I go to Heaven, I get to be happy while knowing that millions of people, including some of my friends and relatives, are tortured for eternity, and I also get to spend eternity worship and bowing before someone who killed all the firstborn sons in an entire nation, just because he wanted to make a political point. I guess that destiny makes me happy.
****************************************Back to morality: Um, no, since that killing obviously and clear violates our evolved morality in many ways, such as hurting our family, violating expectations and promises, etc.On the other hand, if I were Christian, wouldn’t killing them tonight be the ultimate good I could do? Killing them would guarantee that they’d go to heaven, especially the children who are too young to have lost their faith. If I don’t kill them now, they could eventually lose their faith in Jesus and go to hell and be tortured forever, so I better do it tonight. Of course I’d go to Hell for it, so doing it would be the ultimate selfless, loving act a father could do. In fact, Christians have realized this at times, and done exactly this (most recently was Andrea Yates, but by no means the first). Now let’s see, I’ll need to stop by the hardware store . . ..Many of these topics deserve a whole thread. In fact, these are all pretty well worn topics which probably have already been discussed. Take care-EquinoxEdited by Equinox, : added spaces, fixed typo.

"We" are not talking about any such thing."I" am saying that "we" have no way of knowing that anybody "clearly does not believe in God". The only way "we" can guess at anybody's beliefs is by observing their actions. Being born again means starting a new life with a new attitude.The problem some people have with the concept is in thinking of it a a one-time thing. But the very word "again" suggests repetition.You've heard the expression, "Today is the first day of the rest of your life." That's what it means to be born again: to begin every day fresh, to examine your life every day and adjust your attitude every day.There's nothing spooky about being "born again" and nothing magic about being "saved". It's about what you do. It's about learning from your mistakes.It's not something that God does for you. It's what you do.

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You can't talk to fundies unless you accept the premise that there is a coherent message. The best I can hope for is to convert one or two of them from Paulians to Christians.

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OK, well, I can't argue with that. Good luck!I do have to say though, I wonder what a cage fight between Paul and (whoever wrote) Matthew would look like.......Equinox

No they aren't, they BS, and a mockery.
Very intelligent. Jesus said many things, that could be taken many ways.
Jesus said if you love me, you will do them.
What is it to do the acts, without loving God, and hating Him? I addressed that already. You are asking me to prove God with objective evidence, I already told you, as far as I know, you can't.Even miracles, and healings are subjective.I know it's God, because I believe it's God. Just like I think therefor I am. Means many things, to many people. But when it is done with the love of God, it means much more than that.What sense does it do to love your enemy?

Well I was You are changing your story around there, and equinox is right, you are running me around in circles.First you say we know people by there actions, now we are guessing?I am also not talking about judging whether someone believes in God or not. I am talking about someone who comes to you, and says, I do not believe in God.Like this guy: Christopher Hitchens
Amazon.com
He clearly professes to not believe in God, or as he would probably put it, God does not exist, so there is nothing to believe in.I saw him on TV, he only wants to do good, because it is a good idea.Now I don't know his reasons for not believing in God or not, so I cannot assume he is going to heaven or hell. But he will have to answer to God.Remember, I am not one of those that thinks just because you don't believe, means you are going to hell. There sure ain't. It is the furthest thing from spooky. For some people, there is a point in time, where it is magic. What you do with it from that moment on, is not magic, it is you. Yes, it is learning from your mistakes, and God points them out to you.
Many times people "learn" from their mistakes, and that causes them to do the wrong thing. Only God will keep you doing the right thing, i.e. loving your enemy, etc. John 6
65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

There's no contradiction. We can only guess at anybody's motivations/beliefs - the only information we have to go on is their actions. What they claim to believe has no value if it conflicts with their actions. What about them? What does saying they don't believe in God have to do with what kind of person they are? And so what? Doing good is what counts, not "why" he does good. Then how can you say that beliefs have any significance toward salvation? Cop out. The knowledge of good and evil makes us responsible for recognizing our own mistakes. That's the reason for the lack of ethical standards among so many professing Christians: they wait for God to point out what they should be seeing for themselves.

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sorry ringo, but I see that as a condratiction of thoughts. Nothing, it doesn't concern me. I think it counts between you and God. I am only speaking of myself when I say that.
I know what happened to me, and God made Himself very apparent in my life. For me to deny Him now would be like denying this forum. The worst I could do is be angry at Him. Like I said, that is all relative, even if you know God. Could very well be.

Obviously not, being that the majority of the country voted for the "evil" man. Jar, laws are passed from our ability to empathize/sympathize with others being victimized. Our entire code of law stems directly from a moral framework. But that's your opinion. According to you, we live in a world full of moral relativity. Naturally, when a relativist tells me about this or that is evil, my first reaction is to tell them, "So what? What is your opinion supposed to mean to me?"

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Would it be acceptable that Americans are culturally inclined to spread war wherever it goes, and yet, call Americans evil for doing what its culture has established for it?

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The US is one of the only nations on planet earth that is concerned with the lives of innocent people. I mean, you do realize that if we were as bad and mean as many claim that we could simply carpet bomb Iraq and be done with it, right? But the thing staying our hand is the lessons learned from Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Unfortunately, the enemy is well aware of rules of engagement policies, which cares more about the African lousewart than it does its own troops.

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Wrong. We simply have one spouse trying to subvert that absolute. Everybody knows that marriage should be sacred-- that its a unit of commitment. If anything, its society that tries to undermine that which is absolute by coming up with clever ways of getting around it.

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Oh, so people get married just because?

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So then there should be no outside influence? If a family determines for themselves that its okay to engage in incest, then why do outside agencies intervene on behalf of the children? Is it not because its immoral to subject children to that?

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Uh-huh, and why is it illegal? Think about it. If laws didn't come from some moral framework, then laws would be completely nonsensical. Obviously it is illegal to molest little children because we find it morally reprehensible.

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"I marvel that where the ambitious dreams of myself and of Alexander and of Caesar should have vanished into thin air, a Judean peasant”- Jesus ”-should be able to stretch his hands across the centuries, and control the destinies of men and nations." -Napoleon Bonaparte

That's not what you've been saying though. You've been claiming that people's motivations matter and that their beliefs matter. You've been sighing your little lungs out every time I showed you that Jesus said the opposite.Now you're claiming that only riVeRraT's motivations matter? That only riVeRraT's beliefs matter? And only to riVeRraT, apparently?So you agree then that anybody - Christian or non-Christian - can get to heaven? Based on what, if not their beliefs? Their actions?What have I been saying all along?

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Or the majority of people are evil.There are many other reasons though. People voted for him because they trusted the lies he and his administration told them. Hopefully, as more and more people come to realize that they were lied to, they will come to understand that he really is evil. Your first sentence can stand on its own. The second sentence is unneeded.It is also incorrect.Laws are passed for a number of reason, most totally unrelated to morality.A good example are speed limits. If the speed limit is 30 MPH it is 30 MPH regardless of whether or not there is ANY valid reason for it. It is 30 MPH when the road is totally empty or when it is so clogged with traffic that no movement is possible at any speed. That appears to be the stock answer from Biblical Christians.Everything revolves around what's in it for them. Not only totally irrelevant, but a slanderous attack as well. Your response does not address in anyway what I posted and also implies that opposing an unjust war is equvalent to not caring for the troops.Classic misrepresentation of the Christian Right Cult of Ignorance there guy. Tradition. Indoctrination. Greed. Fear. Hope. Escape. Fantasy. Nonsense. Also yet another example of rank dishonesty on your part.The initial point you raised was on incest. Incest does not necessarily mean child molestation. As I pointed out to you, incest among consenting adults is nobodies business except the parties themselves. When the incest is between an adult and child outside agencies step in because society (and only certain segments of society at that) have decided that informed consent cannot be given by minors.But these issues are great examples of relative morality. The things you cite are illegal in the US because the US has passed certain laws based on the current standards of that society.In other countries and other societies different laws govern such activities. Even in the US, at different times in our history, there were different views about such issues.The laws stand regardless of whether or not the things governed are moral or immoral.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Obviously not, being that the majority of the country voted for the "evil" man.

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They didn't, though.The majority of voters in that election voted for him.Only 63 million people out of 300 million, actually.That's only 20% of the population or perhaps a little more since not everyone living here is able to vote.Hardly a majority.Edited by nator, : No reason given.

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According to you, we live in a world full of moral relativity.

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Of course we do, and always have.So far, nobody has been able to show us a non-relative moral.Will you be the first?Here, I'll get you started:It is always/nerver right/wrong to do the following...(insert action, thought, etc., here).

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Naturally, when a relativist tells me about this or that is evil, my first reaction is to tell them, "So what? What is your opinion supposed to mean to me?"

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Everyone is a relativist, including you.

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The US is one of the only nations on planet earth that is concerned with the lives of innocent people.

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Not really.We are the richest country on earth, yet we are not the leader in amount of money given in foreign aid.We can't even provide healthcare for all of our own children, many thousands of them also go hungry, and we have an appallingly high infant mortality rate and shameful prenatal care policies for the poor here in the country you think is so concerned with "the lives of innocent people".Stop repeating rah-rah propaganda, juggs, and learn the facts from real information sources.

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Everybody knows that marriage should be sacred

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I don't know that, and mine isn't sacred.Marriage, as far as the government is concerned, is a legal contract.Nothing "sacred" about a license, is there?

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Think about it. If laws didn't come from some moral framework, then laws would be completely nonsensical. Obviously it is illegal to molest little children because we find it morally reprehensible.

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So why then is it legal for parents to assault their children?I certainly find it morally reprehensible, but it is perfectly legal.

Jar, you said that "evil" is predicated on where we live and how we are affected by that culture. You also said that people are products of their society. So if America is the bloodthirsty war machine you envision, then America is simply doing what its culture does, and Bush is simply a product of that culture.Where then is the evil?

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laws are passed from our ability to empathize/sympathize with others being victimized. Our entire code of law stems directly from a moral framework.

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Jar, traffic laws are enforced because there is a reasonable expectation that, should the average driver go any faster than the posted speed, it will likely cause an accident. And why don't they want to cause accidents? Because it kills people. Why don't they want people to die? Because we empathize with that.Its like any other law that seems arbitrary. Beatings animals is a crime, not because of some arbitrary reason, but because we can empathize with the animal. And doing that to an innocent is immoral. Therefore, we pass laws in hopes that it will protect animals in the future.Seriously, if laws didn't spawn from a moral framework, they would be completely arbitrary. That seems quite obvious to me. How can say that laws and morals bear no relevance to one another? What's in it for me, then?

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The US is one of the only nations on planet earth that is concerned with the lives of innocent people. I mean, you do realize that if we were as bad and mean as many claim that we could simply carpet bomb Iraq and be done with it, right? But the thing staying our hand is the lessons learned from Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Unfortunately, the enemy is well aware of rules of engagement policies, which cares more about the African lousewart than it does its own troops.

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Read what I wrote again.

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Oh, so people get married just because?

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Is this what your marriage is/was based on? That's incredibly callow. Can't say I'm surprised though.Anyway, I've gotta go, so I'll respond to the rest later.

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"I marvel that where the ambitious dreams of myself and of Alexander and of Caesar should have vanished into thin air, a Judean peasant”- Jesus ”-should be able to stretch his hands across the centuries, and control the destinies of men and nations." -Napoleon Bonaparte