"Evidence and Faith"

You being here is evidence of you being here. "It is out there" is nothing, worthless. That is irrelevant. People received help. The motivation is irrelevant. The help of the Holy Spirit is irrelevant.What is important is that people received help.You still don't get it.Peter actually doing stuff was the evidence that he loved Jesus.Saying he loved Jesus didn't count.Bringing folk to Jesus didn't count.Telling folk about Jesus didn't count.Feeding them did.Feeding.If he feed them because they were hungry it counted.Regardless of the motivation, regardless of the reason, it is the acts that count.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Jesus didn't make a distinction.Why? Because it's impossible to tell what somebody's "real" beliefs are. The only evidence we have of their beliefs is their actions. That's why neither the profession of belief nor the belief itself has any "saviing" power. I'm saying that because it's objective. What everybody can see is objective. What one person claims is subjective. The "initial startup" is when we learn as children to do good instead of bad. It has nothing to do with being possessed by the Holy Spirit or anything like that. We're always talking about soup.Intent is irrelevant. Only God knows our intent. Only God can decide if we gave away enough soup or keep too much for ourselves. Only God knows if potato soup has more saving power than chicken noodle.What Jesus said and what I've been trying to get through your head is that it's only the soup that counts.

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Subjective evidence, is still evidence. No it's not, and all we can do is agree to disagree on that one. This is why when I talk to you, I do not think you have experienced the same thing as me, and that is fine. Oh I getr it alright, but you are going to have to accept that maybe you are the one who doesn't get it. Yes, we are fine on that one, we can stop mentioning that now. I have been saying that since day one of me being here. Oh, so now you are God, and can determine if God wants people to love Him or not? If God truely does change lives, and I believe He does, then bringing people to Jesus does count, so long as their actions that follow are commendable. If Peter didn't love Jesus, then he might not have done as many a good thing as he did. His life wouldn't have been changed.
The motivation counts, and the reasons count.jar, do you even believe in Jesus?
Where do you come off quoting bible verses?I just went to the bathroom, and while I was sitting doing my business, I prayted and asked God to speak to me through the bible, I opened it to John 17:24"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."It's that love, the love of Jesus, and God, and the Holy Spirit, that enables people.If you believe in God, and everything is from Him, you would understand this, no problem.It is when people are not following that love, when the trouble starts, whether you believe in God or not.

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Exposing the lies, one truth at a time!

You mean if there is a God, then HE wouldn't know? Then you are missing my whole point.
Not everyone has a fair chance of knowing good from bad in this life ringo.
But I believe God can change that for people.I do not completely agree with nemisis. Good and evil are not absolutes, they are relative, as I have been saying.The fact that evil exists, has always made me think there was a God. So intent does count.

Asserting "It is out there" is not evidence. Of course I have not experienced the same thing as you. But you still have never been able to explain how you identify contact from God or the Holy Spirit. You just keep making worthless assertions. How utterly silly. So I guess you are now going to fall back on the "God knows" gambit.Who cares if God Knows. That is irrelevant. We are trying to determine how YOU can know or I can know, and all we have to go by is behavior, what people do. Sheesh. How is it different if the never come to Jesus but behave exactly the same? How does motive count. If Peter didn't love Jesus he might have done more good things. More of your nonsense.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I don't follow the logic. How on earth could Peter have done more good by not loving Jesus?

Simply by doing one more good thing than he did.Because no one has demonstrated that it requires loving Jesus to do good. In fact, we can see many examples of people doing good that are not Christians.The claim that rR made was simply irrelevant.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Relative to what?Are you suggesting that God doesn't grade on the curve?

I guess I was assuming that IF Peter knew Jesus, how could he then do any more good by not loving Jesus.I can see where an individual who never knew Jesus could still do lots of good without having the need to know Jesus first.

It's impossible for us to tell what anybody's "real" beliefs are - and it's impossible for us to know what God knows or doesn't know. Knowing good from bad has nothing to do with it. You don't have to have special God-given knowledge of "good from bad" to feed the hungry, clothe the naked and visit the prisoner. And what you believe is still irrelevant when we're talking about evidence. No it doesn't. Only the soup counts.You have no way of knowing what God will decide. You might intend to be the best person you can be and give 80% of your income to the poor - and God might still say to you, "Sorry, riVeRraT, you spent too much on model airplanes. Go to hell." Somebody else might never intend to be good at all, but only give an old coat away because he's too lazy to walk to the garbage - and God might say to him, "One man survived the winter because of you. Welcome to heaven."You can never know what God will decide so you can never know what counts as "good intentions" and what doesn't. So anything you understand about "intentions" is irrelevant.It's bewildering how you can be so obstinate in denying what Jesus said.

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Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

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Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

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Nothing about intentions, only actions.

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You are dead wrong ringo. Especially if we are using the bible as a reference for this.First off, let me clear the air once and for all.Your intentions do not count towards the person recieving help, I think I have said that many times already.I have always said that your actions do count, and you will be judged by your actions.It is your faith, Jesus says, that gets you into heaven. It is your intentions that you will be judged by, as well as your actions.This is between you and God, not the person recieving the soup. You are blending issues, I think.

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Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

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Mark 16:17
And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

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Has been done through God.I also want to address onw specific quote of yours: Yes you do. It is the whole reason why Jesus came, and died for us.
The vail to the temple was torn, and the temple is us now. God dwells within us, and if we seek Him, and the use the Holy Spirit as a guide, we know exactly what is good for us, and what God will decide for us.What we don't know, is what God will decide for the next person, and that is where things like condemnation, and judging are wrong. Jesus came to save, not to judge.That is why I tell you, it is all relative.And I have never denied what Jesus said. I have been saying it all along. If I say it one more time, I will start to wonder about you. You are only picking some aspects of what He said, and ignoring all the rest.Edited by riVeRraT, : fixed some brackets

"More of your nonsense."and"yada yada"Are not viable responses to have a discussion with.I will just have to assume you really don't understand.jar:
Matthew 11
27"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.I believe I know God (on the level I can know Him) and I believe there is no way for me to prove it to you. Even if my actions are all good, and great, or whatever. It is you who must seek Him.If I know God's love, and then share that love with others, then God may choose to use me to reach out to a person. But the glory is all for God, for I did not know of this love before meeting Him, it was not awakened in me yet.There is no way of proving it, you cannot prove God to others, you can only know for yourself. You want to know, how I know. That's like asking to prove God.

As anybody can see, I am using the Bible - and a direct quote at that - which shows plainly that the judgement is based only on actions and not on beliefs. Nothing you have said changes what Jesus said in Matthew 25.Your quotes from Mark and John hang on the word "believe" and we've been around that maypole before. What does "believe" mean?Believing in somebody means doing what He asked you to do.Saying "Lord, Lord" is not evidence of belief. Only actions are evidence of belief.

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Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

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Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

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Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

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Judgement is by evidence. If the actions aren't there, neither is the faith. If the actions are there, so is the faith, for all practical purposes, whether it is professed or not.But the judgement is based on the evidence, the actions - not the faith. Nonsense.Jesus said specifically, that some who "know" they are saved are not and that some who "know" they are condemned are not. How much plainer can it get? They don't know - they only think they know.Aren't you even a little embarassed about denying what Jesus said, peTeRraT? You're quite welcome to show what I've ignored instead of just proclaiming it. This thread is about evidence, after all.Edited by Ringo, : Corrected exotic spelling.

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AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!I am not trying to change it. We are not talking about that. We are talking about people who do the actions, and clearly do not believe in God. *sigh* The name of the thread is called "evidence and faith."
the evidence I was addressing, has nothing to do with the evidence we are talking about now.We should have started another thread. It may seem like nonsense to those who have not experienced, as it did to me.Jesus said you must be born again to enter into heaven, what do you think that means?

In some books/authors in the Bible, the faith is it (such as Paul), in others, it’s all or mostly action (James, Mt 25). You can make a strong case for just action based on parts like Mt 25, or make a strong case for faith alone (as the protestant reformers did in the reformation), based mostly on Paul’s letters (not the forgeries, the 7 real ones). You guys are running around in circles because you are trying to get a coherent message out of the Bible.Trying to cram the books of the Bible together only leads to confusion and dissention, or at best a convoluted soteriology.Besides, putting Matthew and Paul in a cagefight to see who’ll win is off the topic of this thread anyway, right?Enjoy this day-EquinoxEdited by Equinox, : fixed boxesEdited by Equinox, : No reason given.