Faith by Definition

No, not unless you can present what those changes are and how they can be tested.You keep moving the goal posts and trying to palm the pea. The question is not what God can do, it is how someone can determine if an experience is divine or not.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Tested? As in testing the existance of the divine? Like, we cannot even test the existance of ourselves!! The question can easily be, in toto, what God can do. You (philosophically) assume otherwise - without mentioning the proof that you seem to suppose underlies your case. Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Still another attempt to misdirect the audience's attention while you palm the pea.Of course we can run tests on my existence, and anyone can independently verify much, but you still avoid providing the support for your assertion.I can be weighed. I can be photographed. I can be xrayed. Independent observers can test my existence.Please list the tests that can be used by anyone, believer or non-believer to determine if some experience is divine or non-divine.Quit trying to con the folk.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You suppose to invoke all these "people" and items of "equipment" BEFORE you have demonstrated the existance of self? To assume they exist so as to demonstrate you exist. How very circular!"I'm xrayable - therefore I am" Hrrumph...Edited by iano, : No reason given.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

What crap. A classic con attempt and yet another attempt to palm the pea.I show methods that my existence can be verified.Now it is your turn.Provide the methods to determine if some experience is divine or non-divine?Edited by jar, : No reason given.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

If you can't handle the heat..NEXT!!! Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Sorry but that still does not answer the question.How can someone determine if an experience is divine or non-divine or admit that it cannot be done.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

The reason it doesn't answer the question can lie as much in the weakness of questioning as in the attempt to answer. It cannot be done by the person - not that that matters a jot.It is done by the divine to the person. And if done by the divine the person knows it is the divine. They know it because of the ability of the divine to instill the sense we call "knowing".Sure: it could be delusion. Or the devil playing games. But that's a problem for the extent of what it is to "know". All you can do is know - you're not the divine!Night xEdited by iano, : No reason given.

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Unless of course it is of divine origin. In which case it would be unique (in the sense of not having the flavor of the non-divine).

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What "flavor" would that be, exactly?Or, rather, how can anyone tell the difference?

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There is little point in asking for clarification here- given that experience of the divine requires experience of the divine in order to compare to the non-divine.

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Sure.How does one tell the difference between an authentic or genuine divine experience from an imagined one?After all, we know for a fact that people can manufacture or be induced by various means to produce all sorts of feelings, including ones described as deeply religious, spiritual, or divine.

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Indeed, it is experience of the divine that permits you to realise that there is such a "league" as the non-divine.

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Or, people who think there is such a thing as a "divine" experience are just telling themselves that, and that every experience is a non-divine experience.How do we tell the difference?

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If you don't know then how can you dispute Phat's experience?

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Why should I take his word for it?

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I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm just saying that your knowing suffers from the same problems as does mine - when it comes to demonstrating itself absolutely

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Of course, that's not true, and you have had this explained to you many times.There are many ways to externally validate someone's existence and the fact that they are participating in an internet discussion.We cannot do that at all for your claim of having had an authentic divine experience.The two claims are not at all identical.Since you have had this explained to you probably dozens of times by now, I must conclude you to be either dishionest or dense since you contine to repeat it.

I'm sorry but that is simply bullshit nonsense. If they know it, "How do they know that it is divine or non-divine."You still have simply avoided the question.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

These "many ways" of yours all involve the bald assumption that the tools used to demonstrate someone elses existance themselves exist. You mean to tell me you can't see the circularity of your argument? This is it: "I assume this tool to exist and I apply this assumed tool to demonstrate the existance of something who existance I am attempting to demonstrate"Your knowing these tools exist doesn't mean they do Schraf - that's elemental. You seem to have a hard time admitting that you do precisely as I do - you assume your knowing certain things exist means they do. You assume that what you perceive to be real is real and move on to apply these perceived tools to particular perceived jobs which you also assume to be real.Your general error is to forget that your argument has to attach to something concrete at the end. And there is nothing concrete at the end. Your structure is built on a foundation called Your Assumptions About The Nature Of Reality. Just as mine is. The foundations are indeed identical. The structures each of us build will depend upon what we perceive the reality to be. But its the foundation that's important.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

I don't believe I have. You seem to be labouring under the notion that the divine is not able to demonstrate his divinity.Which would be foolish in the extreme. If we are to suppose that "knowing" is a particular arrangement of braincells (that differs to the arrangement of brain cells called "suspect that") then it doesn't take a major leap to suppose that the divine can ensure brain cells take on the arrangement call "knowing it is the divine"How do I know? Because the divine made it so. How else do you suppose it could happen in not thus.

No, I am asking how that is done and how it can be tested.Let's try to stick to the issue and please stop trying to change the subject.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion