Faith by Definition

I am not disputing what you say. Of course you cannot prove it is god and I cannot prove it is not. I certainly believe you had the experience but why do you believe it to be with god? Where was god during this experience? Did god speak to you? Did you see an image of god? You don't actually mention god until you draw your conclusion.Everything you describe is from within you. Physically, mentally and emotionally. You created it. You experienced it and you gave meaning to it. So why cannot this experience be totally down to you?

It was unlike anything I had ever felt before. It was so unique that I remember the actual events of that day now....14 years later.

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I am not convinced that I created it. I will agree that I experienced it.

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Why is it so hard for people to accept that God exists, anyway?

Is there any difference between your question and asking why it is so easy for people to believe God exists?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Heinrik writes:

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Everything you describe is from within you. Physically, mentally and emotionally. You created it. You experienced it and you gave meaning to it. So why cannot this experience be totally down to you?

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Phat writes:

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It was unlike anything I had ever felt before. It was so unique that I remember the actual events of that day now....14 years later.

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I am not convinced that I created it. I will agree that I experienced it.

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Tat tvam asi, anyone?

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Don't you think that it is possible that god had nothing to do with your experience and that you, amongst many others, are beginning to discover there is much more to the human potential than we have ever dreamed of?

Of course it is possible, I suppose...theoretically. A person will gravitate towards the belief that their bias is accepting of, and I know that the emotions and character changes that I experienced that day involved an "other"...and it was not simply me.Had the changes in my life been limited or attributed to just this one event, I can see where my bias could have fueled my belief.I also was drawn into a church environment that ultimately turned out to be unhealthy. In so doing, I learned a lot about human nature, manipulation, confirmation bias (a term I later learned in Social Psychology) and organized religion in the United States.I also agree with you that humans have untapped potential. It is said that we use less than 10% of our brains, but who said it and how they measured it is not known.One of the differences that I see between me and you is that I want a relationship with God and you apparently see no need for such a crutch. (one mans crutch is another mans anchor)It is also quite ironic that many religious fundamentalists around the world collectively foresee the demise of civilization and the subsequent need of a religious solution through an evil dynamic personality while many progressive thinkers see the need for the
demise of religious fundamentalism and see the need for humans to become dynamic personalities.The two world views are definitely on a collision course.Some people believe that we individually would do well to cultivate a relationship with the Spirit (life force, cosmic consciousness) of God and allow for His guidance in communion with humanity.Conversely, others believe the exact opposite: That we need to do away with the outdated "need" for God and that we ourselves should strive to maximize our own potential and inner peace and charisma.

christiansoldier, do you have any interest in discussing your views on reproductive rights?If so, let me know and I will begin a new thread.

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It was unlike anything I had ever felt before. It was so unique that I remember the actual events of that day now....14 years later.

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I could say the same thing about the first time I had sex.Or got drunk.Or realized that I had fallen deeply in love with someone.And all of those things happened more than 20 years ago for me, yet I remember each moment.Having a unique experience in no way indicates a divine origin.

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I am not convinced that I created it. I will agree that I experienced it.

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Obviously you aren't convinced. But why? Why does Occam's razor not apply here?

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Why is it so hard for people to accept that God exists, anyway?

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Obviously it isn't hard for most people.Most people don't think much about their belief. They just believe becasue they were taught to and it is too scary to consider disbelief. They also do get social benefit from the community and the reassurance and comfort that faith can provide, even if it is a baseless faith.For those of us who really have thought a lot about it, though, it becomes pretty difficult to maintain a faith that appears indistinguishable from self-delusion.

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and I know that the emotions and character changes that I experienced that day involved an "other"...and it was not simply me.

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How do you know?

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It is said that we use less than 10% of our brains, but who said it and how they measured it is not known.

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Common misconception, but kind of silly when you think about it. If we only ever use 10% of our brains, why does most brain damage in any part of the brain cause measurable effects?We use 100% of our brains. More info

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One of the differences that I see between me and you is that I want a relationship with God and you apparently see no need for such a crutch. (one mans crutch is another mans anchor)

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Eventually, you need to pull up anchor if you expect to ever sail anywhere.

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Some people believe that we individually would do well to cultivate a relationship with the Spirit (life force, cosmic consciousness) of God and allow for His guidance in communion with humanity.

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Conversely, others believe the exact opposite: That we need to do away with the outdated "need" for God and that we ourselves should strive to maximize our own potential and inner peace and charisma.

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Well, when all you believers finally agree on what God/gods/Spirit/whatever is telling Humanity to do, let the rest of us know, OK?Oh, and please do the same when you have figured out how to tell the difference between God speaking and your own imagination.

thanks Phat, this is an excellent post. I believe I understand the knowing of an 'other' being present within. I have also experienced this in the form of answers and insights that I could not have known. However, my experiences come from painful emotions, so who or what would the 'other' be in my case? The devil maybe?I think you are right in saying I do not want god as a crutch but on the other hand I would accept an honest, open, equal relationship with a god. Unfortuneately, the biblical god does not fit the bill and I cannot accept anything less. All or nothing but I haven't decided which yet. It's a work in progress.The two world views are fascinating. Could they both be correct? It could be a domino effect rather than a collision. Wouldn't it be interesting if the evil dynamic personality kicked the butts and the humans had no choice but to become dynamic personalities in their own right? Would you save yourself or rely on god to save you?

Nator, I am trying to see your point of view here but you don't seem to have one.

My point is that Phat can't tell the difference between a "real" spiritual experience and one that was imagined by him.Nobody can.

And what is a 'real spiritual' experience?

HeinrikPrecisely the problem Heinrik. A spiritual experience {whatever THAT means} is never explained as other than a personal event that cannot be shown to exist outside of head of the person making the claim. Due to this constriction it is not possible to determine whether the event is actual {defined as an event that leaves verifiable evidence} or simply the musings of an imagination specific to that individual.

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And what is a 'real spiritual' experience?

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My point is that Phat can't tell the difference between a "real" spiritual experience and one that was imagined by him.Nobody can.