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Author Topic:   Why people want to believe there is a god.
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 151 of 192 (16986)
09-09-2002 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by blitz77
09-09-2002 9:30 AM


Originally posted by blitz77:
Science is based on statistics to check reliability of an experiment.
What was meant is that when using stats one must also consider the motives involved as well. I.E. Like when an anti-abortion group had put out a "study" which claimed that abortions caused cancer. Their motives are suspect and they were proven wrong as well.
The requested page was not found
Which books?
Exactly.
MonaStereo.com is for sale | HugeDomains
[This message has been edited by nos482, 09-09-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by blitz77, posted 09-09-2002 9:30 AM blitz77 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Mammuthus, posted 09-09-2002 10:18 AM nos482 has replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 152 of 192 (16987)
09-09-2002 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by blitz77
09-09-2002 9:38 AM


Originally posted by blitz77:
The difference between Greek Mythology and the account of Christ's life is the difference between legend and history. Go to Israel, and even the Jews there will admit that Jesus existed.
Which Jews?
And as for Greek mythology, archaelogists and historians think there might be at least a grain of truth in them. David Rohl equates Dionysis with Noah (both invented wine), and many other correlations between other cultural heroes and myths with the bible, eg Osiris with Noah (Osiris was tossed into a compartment/box/ark and cast into the water), as well as many other similarities. Take a read of David Rohl's 'Legend: The Genesis of Civilization'. David Rohl is the world famous Egyptologist (and no, he isn't a Christian).
That is because there is much Greek influence in modern Christianity because the scribes, who translated it into Greek, were trained in the anicent Greek tradition as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by blitz77, posted 09-09-2002 9:38 AM blitz77 has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 153 of 192 (16988)
09-09-2002 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by nos482
09-09-2002 10:04 AM


Hey nos482
blitz used near death experience as experimental evidence for hell and the ICR as a scientific institution...should we book him for a stand-up comedy gig
quote:
Originally posted by nos482:
Originally posted by blitz77:
Science is based on statistics to check reliability of an experiment.
Experimental stats used in a lab are not the same thing as those used to on the outside world. It is a matter of scale and number of varibles.
Which books?
Exactly.
MonaStereo.com is for sale | HugeDomains


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by nos482, posted 09-09-2002 10:04 AM nos482 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by nos482, posted 09-09-2002 10:27 AM Mammuthus has not replied
 Message 157 by blitz77, posted 09-10-2002 5:00 AM Mammuthus has replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 154 of 192 (16989)
09-09-2002 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Mammuthus
09-09-2002 10:18 AM


Originally posted by Mammuthus:
Hey nos482
blitz used near death experience as experimental evidence for hell and the ICR as a scientific institution...should we book him for a stand-up comedy gig
Maybe we could get him a job as the Wizard of OZ as well?
BTW, I changed my reply regarding The usage of stats.
[This message has been edited by nos482, 09-09-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Mammuthus, posted 09-09-2002 10:18 AM Mammuthus has not replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 155 of 192 (17040)
09-09-2002 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by nos482
09-08-2002 8:05 AM


[QUOTE][B]As I had stated the early Christians didn't believe in a Hell as we now know the concept. To them it was either heaven or the grave.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
References to Hell can be found in the OT:
[QUOTE][B]Job 26:6
Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
Also: [QUOTE][B]Psalm 55:15
Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them. [/QUOTE]
[/B]
Where did you get this idea that early Christians did not believe in Hell? Is the source any better than the one that with the genocidal Mormon missionaries, Shakespeare translating the KJV, and Jesus being a Roman celebrity?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by nos482, posted 09-08-2002 8:05 AM nos482 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by John, posted 09-10-2002 1:14 AM gene90 has replied
 Message 159 by nos482, posted 09-10-2002 8:12 AM gene90 has replied
 Message 162 by nator, posted 09-10-2002 6:54 PM gene90 has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 156 of 192 (17043)
09-10-2002 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by gene90
09-09-2002 11:24 PM


In both verses mentioning 'hell' the Hebrew word is 'sheol' It carries a lot of negative connotations but it isn't really the fire and brimstone I was taught. Perhaps the Prince of Darkness means to make a similar distinction.
------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by gene90, posted 09-09-2002 11:24 PM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by gene90, posted 09-10-2002 8:51 PM John has replied

  
blitz77
Inactive Member


Message 157 of 192 (17055)
09-10-2002 5:00 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Mammuthus
09-09-2002 10:18 AM


[quote]Hmmm? Try going to any hospital or nurse ward some time. Ask the nurses about near death experiences. Most will tell you about near death experiences by patients. There are numerous books on the subject-by psychologists, doctors, etc. Ever read one?
quote:
MonaStereo.com is for sale | HugeDomains
You are referring to the Apocryhal books? Lets take a look at the definition of Apocrypha: -
quote:
Greek, apokryphos. from the Greek krypto, the secret or hidden. Protestant Religion: those religious writings deemed by Protestants as non-canonical, and called concealed or hidden because their origin was often unknown, or their authority and authorship was spurious or doubtful. Because of their obscure and dubious origin, they are ordinarily rejected as inspired, authentic or authoritative. Roman Catholic: The additional 15 books in Roman catholic Bibles which they call deuterocanonical, but which were rejected as canonical by the early Church, and by Protestants. Non-Religious In some circles Apocryphal has come to mean any books or writings which are (or have been), rarely seen, hidden, obscure, mysterious, or secretive.
These books were not part of the Masoretic text, and as they are obscure and their authorship is dubious and were added to the Hebrew text (originally they weren't in the Bible, but the Roman Catholic church added it, however the historical Christian religion growing from it understood that they were non-canonical) that Jews considered canonical, they were not used. They were not used because although they were deutoroconical books, it was the Jews to which the Old Testament was entrusted, (Rom 3:1-2, Rom 9:4), and the Jews did not use the Apocryhal texts. We see Jews using the exact same old testament as Protestants use today. Since they were never considered God inspired in the first place, but only included as they were considered useful. In almost all translations of the Apocryha used in those days, basically all made clear mention that it was not canonical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Mammuthus, posted 09-09-2002 10:18 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Mammuthus, posted 09-10-2002 7:43 AM blitz77 has not replied
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Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 158 of 192 (17067)
09-10-2002 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by blitz77
09-10-2002 5:00 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by blitz77:
[B][quote]Hmmm? Try going to any hospital or nurse ward some time. Ask the nurses about near death experiences. Most will tell you about near death experiences by patients. There are numerous books on the subject-by psychologists, doctors, etc. Ever read one?
Try talking to a person after a major traumatic event...they will tell you all sorts of strange things....or a tripped out crackhead....And I find it interesting that you reject evolution out of hand even though it is supported by thousands of scientists in multiple disciplines yet use the fact that psychologists or doctors analyzed near death experiences as somehow validating your view. So you only agree with science when it supports your religion but when you are shown to be wrong suddenly all science is bogus....
By the way, what was the testable hypothesis examined for a near death experience...how does this provide evidence that there is a hell and what it is like (per your original post)?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by blitz77, posted 09-10-2002 5:00 AM blitz77 has not replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 159 of 192 (17074)
09-10-2002 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by gene90
09-09-2002 11:24 PM


Originally posted by gene90:
References to Hell can be found in the OT:
As many Christians like to say, the OT is superseded by the NT.
[Irrelevant crap deleted]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by gene90, posted 09-09-2002 11:24 PM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by blitz77, posted 09-10-2002 10:27 AM nos482 has replied
 Message 166 by gene90, posted 09-10-2002 8:46 PM nos482 has not replied

  
blitz77
Inactive Member


Message 160 of 192 (17081)
09-10-2002 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by nos482
09-10-2002 8:12 AM


Not quite-the OT complements the NT, and points to it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by nos482, posted 09-10-2002 8:12 AM nos482 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by nos482, posted 09-10-2002 11:01 AM blitz77 has not replied
 Message 164 by nator, posted 09-10-2002 7:05 PM blitz77 has not replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 161 of 192 (17084)
09-10-2002 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by blitz77
09-10-2002 10:27 AM


quote:
Originally posted by blitz77:
Not quite-the OT complements the NT, and points to it.
Have you heard of the New Covenant? I keep hearing from Christians that the OT is no longer needed because of this. They usually assert this whenever one points out how some justify their violence and hatred from the bible.
[This message has been edited by nos482, 09-10-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by blitz77, posted 09-10-2002 10:27 AM blitz77 has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 162 of 192 (17119)
09-10-2002 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by gene90
09-09-2002 11:24 PM


quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
[QUOTE][B]As I had stated the early Christians didn't believe in a Hell as we now know the concept. To them it was either heaven or the grave.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
References to Hell can be found in the OT:
[QUOTE][B]Job 26:6
Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
Also: [QUOTE][B]Psalm 55:15
Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them. [/QUOTE]
[/B]
Where did you get this idea that early Christians did not believe in Hell? Is the source any better than the one that with the genocidal Mormon missionaries, Shakespeare translating the KJV, and Jesus being a Roman celebrity?

The early Christians did not believe in Hell in the same way that many Christians today believe in Hell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by gene90, posted 09-09-2002 11:24 PM gene90 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by gene90, posted 09-10-2002 8:36 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 163 of 192 (17120)
09-10-2002 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by blitz77
09-10-2002 5:00 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by blitz77:
[B]
quote:
Hmmm? Try going to any hospital or nurse ward some time. Ask the nurses about near death experiences. Most will tell you about near death experiences by patients. There are numerous books on the subject-by psychologists, doctors, etc. Ever read one?
Sure. Have have you read any books skeptical of the mysical nature of NDE's?
Did you know that NDE-like experiences have been chemically-induced with ketamine?
Read this:
near-death experience (NDE) - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com
An excerpt:
"According to Dr. Jansen, ketamine can reproduce all the main features of the NDE, including travel through a dark tunnel into the light, the feeling that one is dead, communing with God, hallucinations, out-of-body experiences, strange noises, etc. This does not prove that there is no life after death, but it does prove that an NDE is not proof of an afterlife. In any case, the so-called "typical" NDE is not typical of anything, except the tendency of parapsychologists to selectively isolate features of a wide array of experiences and fit them to a paranormal or supernatural hypothesis."
------------------
"We will still have perfect freedom to hold contrary views of our own, but to simply
close our minds to the knowledge painstakingly accumulated by hundreds of thousands
of scientists over long centuries is to deliberately decide to be ignorant and narrow-
minded."
-Steve Allen, from "Dumbth"
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 09-10-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by blitz77, posted 09-10-2002 5:00 AM blitz77 has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 164 of 192 (17122)
09-10-2002 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by blitz77
09-10-2002 10:27 AM


quote:
Originally posted by blitz77:
Not quite-the OT complements the NT, and points to it.
Some Christians, including Episcopalian Bishop John Shelby Spong, believe that the NT was written with the OT open next to the author in order for the prophecies to correctly be fulfilled.
Of course, there are several references to OT prophecies in the NT that Jesus supposedly fulfilled, except that no such prophecies exist in the first place, with the most memorable one for me being that the Messiah would be a Nazerene.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by blitz77, posted 09-10-2002 10:27 AM blitz77 has not replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 165 of 192 (17123)
09-10-2002 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by nator
09-10-2002 6:54 PM


[QUOTE][B]The early Christians did not believe in Hell in the same way that many Christians today believe in Hell.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
Yes, that is exactly what Nos said.
That may be but I'm waiting for supporting information and a rebuttal to the passages I quoted.
quote:
Debate in good faith by addressing rebuttals through the introduction of new information or by providing additional argument. Do not merely keep repeating the same points without elaboration.
[This message has been edited by gene90, 09-10-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by nator, posted 09-10-2002 6:54 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by nator, posted 09-12-2002 10:59 AM gene90 has replied

  
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