Why people want to believe there is a god.

Here is a passage from one of my favorite novels. It explains perfectly why people want to believe there is a god.The Court of the TwiceBorn 3:
The Absent Referent"Every child is born into a universe ruled by a just and particular god, the
center of whose universe in turn that child is. None of us ever truly recovers
from the first great betrayal: that the universe is not that which the
evidence of our hearts and minds and senses has proclaimed it to be.There is more magnanimity in human nature than is popularly supposed. If we
cannot claim a personal universe for ourselves, enfolded by a god who knows
our name, we will create it for others. A cosmos which notices, for good or
ill, is far preferable to one which simply ignores us.Thus, one of the seductions of power. It begins, always, as an intent to
redress the wrong discovered in childhood---that one is not the center of the
of the universe, that in fact the universe, being no spectator, cannot possess
a center.Against this, rather than for anything at all, we go to war and die, set up
gods and avatars, or declare that the universe indeed dances to some measure
if disinterested pattern which may now discover and invoke.There is no escape. Life was made to hope; to believe, in the face of all
evidence, that something may yet be so because it is *nicer* than the reality
experienced daily.It is true that in a continuum of random change, some change may be perceived
as for the better.It is even possible, in an infinity of change, that the universe may come to
hold meaning at last."

And what about the question why do people want to believe there is no God?

Easy, there is no evidence for god(s)

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Originally posted by blitz77:
And what about the question why do people want to believe there is no God?

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So what kind of evidence do you want? Historical evidence? Evidence for prophecies fulfilled after the predictions in the bible? Evidence for Jesus?

All of the above with the addition of physical evidence. Show me an intelligent designed system and the proof that it is designed i.e. evidence for a designed species for example where all data from multiple disciplines supports design over evolutionary mechanisms.I would not mind some physical evidence for Jesus either...Cheers,
Mammuthus

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Originally posted by blitz77:
So what kind of evidence do you want? Historical evidence? Evidence for prophecies fulfilled after the predictions in the bible? Evidence for Jesus?

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Show me an intelligent designed system and the proof that it is designed i.e. evidence for a designed species for example where all data from multiple disciplines supports design over evolutionary mechanisms.

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What if you're a theistic evolutionist?Well you included prophecies, and that means I can have a great deal of fun in this thread, probably offending every other Christian around. Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.

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Originally posted by blitz77:
So what kind of evidence do you want? Historical evidence? Evidence for prophecies fulfilled after the predictions in the bible? Evidence for Jesus?

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Easy, all it would take is for god to appear in the so-called flesh. By his/her/its very appearance would be evidence enough. BTW, believing in the existence of god is not necessarily worshipping of said deity either.

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Originally posted by gene90:
[QUOTE][B]Show me an intelligent designed system and the proof that it is designed i.e. evidence for a designed species for example where all data from multiple disciplines supports design over evolutionary mechanisms.[/QUOTE]

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What if you're a theistic evolutionist?

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Well you included prophecies, and that means I can have a great deal of fun in this thread, probably offending every other Christian around.

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Isn't that a contradiction in terms? If most theists (Christian) believe that we're made in their god's image than god must have looked like an ape early on.

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Originally posted by blitz77:
And what about the question why do people want to believe there is no God?

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Maybe they are just being honest with themselves? BTW, I'm an agnostic. An honest answer to the question about the existence of a creator of all is "I don't know."

Homer Simpson is God??? I Knew it!!!

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Originally posted by nos482:

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Originally posted by gene90:
[QUOTE][B]Show me an intelligent designed system and the proof that it is designed i.e. evidence for a designed species for example where all data from multiple disciplines supports design over evolutionary mechanisms.[/QUOTE]

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What if you're a theistic evolutionist?

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Well you included prophecies, and that means I can have a great deal of fun in this thread, probably offending every other Christian around.

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Isn't that a contradiction in terms? If most theists (Christian) believe that we're made in their god's image than god must have looked like an ape early on.

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[QUOTE][B]Isn't that a contradiction in terms? If most theists (Christian) believe that we're made in their god's image than god must have looked like an ape early on.[/QUOTE][/B]That is an actual possibility. (I told you I would offend people.) Or it could be that we are the end result of our own evolutionary progress and we now look like God and will go no further. Finally, according to a literal interpretation of Genesis, man was made of dust. I don't feel that evolution necessarily makes God anything "lower" than man (haha, I avoided the pun) more than literal Creationism makes God into dust.

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Originally posted by gene90:
That is an actual possibility. (I told you I would offend people.) Or it could be that we are the end result of our own evolutionary progress and we now look like God and will go no further. Finally, according to a literal interpretation of Genesis, man was made of dust. I don't feel that evolution necessarily makes God anything "lower" than man (haha, I avoided the pun) more than literal Creationism makes God into dust.

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Actually, everything on this planet is made from CHON (Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Nitrogen) There is some thought that we are at the point in our evolution where we can direct its course to what we may want. Some say that we could go in the direction of freeing our minds from organic bodies to cybernetic ones (When we will become our tools), and others to extensive genetic re-engineering. If anything we have now taken ourselves mostly out of the "loop".[This message has been edited by nos482, 09-02-2002]

[QUOTE][B]Actually, everything on this planet is made from CHON (Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Nitrogen)[/QUOTE][/B]You have a clear bias against rocks. [QUOTE][B]There is some thought that we are at the point in our evolution where we can direct its course to what we may want. [/QUOTE][/B]That makes us fundamentally unique. While it might be argued that some animals practice selective breeding in mate selection and microbes can pick and choose DNA only we do these things with any sense of planning. I think genetic engineering is just a logical extension of something that has been happening in nature (and practised by people) for a long time.We'd better put it to use because medicine, while a great boon for humanity, is removing selection pressure for pretty much everything. If we don't develop practical and widespread genetic therapy within a few generations there will probably be consequences. The problem with that is that we would be losing genetic diversity in the process. [QUOTE][B]Some say that we could go in the direction of freeing our minds from organic bodies to cybernetic ones (When we will become our tools)[/QUOTE][/B]And presumably overcome death in the process, or at least, death due to aging (accidents will still happen, maybe conflicts as well).Of course when the seat of "your" consciousness jumps from your brain to the console on the desk over there, is whatever "it" is on the other end "you" or just a model of the way you (now dead) thought? [QUOTE][B]and others to extensive genetic re-engineering.[/QUOTE][/B]I'm *not* gonna be the first person on my block to sign up for that. [QUOTE][B]If anything we have now taken ourselves mostly out of the "loop".[/QUOTE][/B]We started our way out of the loop when we started using tools. We've been mostly out of the ecological loop for centuries, we're just finishing up the last details now.

Originally posted by gene90:You have a clear bias against rocks.Only the ones in certain heads. BTW, dust is mostly made up of flakes of skin. That makes us fundamentally unique. While it might be argued that some animals practice selective breeding in mate selection and microbes can pick and choose DNA only we do these things with any sense of planning. I think genetic engineering is just a logical extension of something that has been happening in nature (and practised by people) for a long time.

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We'd better put it to use because medicine, while a great boon for humanity, is removing selection pressure for pretty much everything. If we don't develop practical and widespread genetic therapy within a few generations there will probably be consequences. The problem with that is that we would be losing genetic diversity in the process.The problem is that through ignorance many fear genetic engineering. If they don't like it when we do it to our food they certainly won't when we start on ourselves.And presumably overcome death in the process, or at least, death due to aging (accidents will still happen, maybe conflicts as well).

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Of course when the seat of "your" consciousness jumps from your brain to the console on the desk over there, is whatever "it" is on the other end "you" or just a model of the way you (now dead) thought?What's the difference? It is still just data, wheither it is in an organic or inorganic matrix it still functions the same. A neuro-net is a neuro-net. In fact certain areas of the brain operate in a digital, or binary, manner. The brain processes thought the same as the stomach processes food. Basically all we are is a self-writing meta-program.I'm *not* gonna be the first person on my block to sign up for that.Why not? I know, as a victim of thalidomide, that I would jump at the chance to correct my flawed genes, or even to do away with them altogether.We started our way out of the loop when we started using tools. We've been mostly out of the ecological loop for centuries, we're just finishing up the last details now. Maybe this is one of the signs of a fully sentient species, to shape itself and not let nature do it for us. Where mind is more important than form.[This message has been edited by nos482, 09-02-2002]

Hi nos482
You mentioned you are a victim of thalidomide? I am sorry to hear that. If I understand it correctly your genes are fine but thalidomide changes the timing of gene expression in the limb causing limb reduction. Ideally, one would be able to locally reactivate the development process and re-engage the limb development process. I agree that this would be a wonderful (though sadly very futuristic) application of gene therapy.Evolutionary developmental biology (EVO-DEVO) looks not so much at conservation of gene sequences but at conservation of gene expression patterns during development which has a much broader impact on phenotype than a specific point mutation in a non-coding gene. It is very likely that the small differences between chimps and humans for example will be due to slight shifts in timing of gene expression during development...there is already preliminary evidence that humans have altered gene expression in the brain for specific genes relative to other great apes...however, thus far, nobody has been able to track the changes during development.Over the next few centuries as we get a better handle on how all of these processes work I think some marvelous medical applications will be developed....and all of them will face incredible resistance from the radical right who will not understand the techniques but will be against them nonetheless.cheers,
Mammuthus