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Author Topic:   A Question About Deception
Iname
Junior Member (Idle past 3885 days)
Posts: 28
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 1 of 75 (319725)
06-09-2006 9:06 PM


I'd like to take this opportunity to say hello, I'm one of those people you've suspected have been watching you as I lurk about EvC.
In reading through the topics from the last few years over the last month or so and I've come across several debates where YECs and other creationists have used arguements such as.....
quote:
God could have created the Earth/Sun/Universe with the appearance of great age along with creating other false evidences in order to test your faith for whatever reason
Paraphrasing obviously,
So I have a question, if God is willing to decieve mankind about the age of the Earth, where then does the deception actually lie? How do you know that modern science isn't more or less correct about the age of the Universe, the age of Earth, and the origin of life and the Bible was meant as the deception? He could've very well have had the Bible written in the hopes that many of it's stories would be rejected as accurate portrayals of history one day.

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AdminPD
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Message 2 of 75 (319727)
06-09-2006 9:07 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 75 (319760)
06-09-2006 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Iname
06-09-2006 9:06 PM


Re: No Deception Atol.
Iname, if you were able to invent a formula to grow corn in one day would you use that ability to grow corn in one day?
Iname, if you grew your corn in one day would your day old corn from seed to the table in one day show the appearance of age?
Iname, if you indeed grew your corn in one day, having the appearance of age, does the appearance of age make you a deceiver, or does it show that you have invented a very good corn growing formula?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 4 of 75 (319773)
06-09-2006 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Iname
06-09-2006 9:06 PM


no deception
I don't know if the earth was initially created with the appearance of age or not, and my own view is somewhat complicated which I will explain later, but for sake of argument, let's consider your premise.
Let's suppose that God created the earth with apparent age as someone would a stressed look for a table or something, a matter of personal style.
Now, God tells man, look here, it's actually very young, but look at how I made it look.....pretty cool.
The ignoramous human though says, hey, since it doesn't look like it would if I made it, you must be trying to deceive me God.
How stupid is the premise here. I mean it's not God's fault if men create myths of their own choosing, setting up assumptions and rules by which they consider data, refusing a priori some explanations and only accepting others. If men are deceived, they are deceiving themselves. God's not here to babysit every dumb idea man has and say, now now, it's not really like that, and oh yeah, I will send my Son to die again and rise again just for your generation because, you know, you should have everything proven and handed to you on your own terms.....sorry, but that's selfish hogwash. God reveals Himself to you in His own way, personalized even, but not one's own dictation but of God's choosing.
Now, my view on this is that the past is not static, and what I mean by that is the past, present, and future can be seen as a whole. The time-line can grow not just forward, but the past can expand as well, and I think the timeline can expand spatially so there can be a limited form of multiverse.
So let's say the universe is 15 billion years old now. In a million years, it could contract and be 4 billion years old, or perhaps be 100 billion years old, or even days old or there can be various ages for several universes in existence, connected to a degree side by side.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Iname, posted 06-09-2006 9:06 PM Iname has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 5 of 75 (319836)
06-10-2006 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Buzsaw
06-09-2006 9:56 PM


Re: No Deception Atol.
Buzsaw writes:
... if you grew your corn in one day would your day old corn from seed to the table in one day show the appearance of age?
What would constitute "appearance of age" in a corn plant? Radiocarbon dating wouldn't apply, I don't think. There are no rings, etc.
How would one empirically determine the age - real or apparent - of that corn plant?
I think it's a false analogy. A better analogy would be a tree that grows to a one-foot diameter in one day - complete with rings that give the appearance of many years' growth. Then, after that one day, the tree would grow at a rate of one ring per year.
That fits the "appearance of age" scenario better than your corn plant. And the change in ring-production rate - from many in one day to one per year - seems to imply deception.

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Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 6 of 75 (319880)
06-10-2006 5:18 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Buzsaw
06-09-2006 9:56 PM


Re: No Deception Atol.
Your analogy isn't complete. To make it complete we would need the deliberate addition of details which provide evidence of age but have nothing to do with the process. Say, perhaps there was evdence that insects had laid eggs on the plants which hatched (empty egg cases), fetd on the plants (signs of insect attack) and metamorphosed into adults (empty pupae) - even though the process didn't affect insects at all.
Would that be deception ?

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 7 of 75 (319899)
06-10-2006 7:13 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Buzsaw
06-09-2006 9:56 PM


Re: No Deception Atol.
Before I read up to PaulK's response, I had already planned to reply in the same vein. What if the corn showed effects from the dry spell from several weeks earlier when it didn't even exist (dessicated kernals, for example)? Or what if it showed the effects of an insect attack that occurred when locusts move through the area several weeks before?
In other words, what is the Christian perspective on evidence put in place for no other purpose than to give an appearance of age that does not in reality exist?
I assume the answer is one that has neither evidence for or against: that we cannot know the true reasons God did this, but that the intent was not to deceive because God would never lie.
--Percy

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Iname
Junior Member (Idle past 3885 days)
Posts: 28
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 8 of 75 (319951)
06-10-2006 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by randman
06-09-2006 10:09 PM


Re: no deception
quote:
Let's suppose that God created the earth with apparent age as someone would a stressed look for a table or something, a matter of personal style.
Here lies the heart of my dilemma, you could turn that around just as easily, let's assume that God created the Universe billions of years ago and so on, then told some guys to write these books saying otherwise and is waiting for a time when humanity learns enough about the world around to reject said books. Either scenario is just as likely as the other.
quote:
I mean it's not God's fault if men create myths of their own choosing
But is it not his fault if he creates a situation knowing full well that it would be misinterpreted beforehand? He could have just as easily made the Universe suitable to his taste and yet internally consistent.
quote:
God reveals Himself to you in His own way, personalized even, but not one's own dictation but of God's choosing.
But again, if he decides to reveal himself to me in a way he knows will not convince me is it not his fault since he knew it wouldn't work, and not only that he created me that way so he has nobody to blame but himself if it doesn't workout.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 9 of 75 (319956)
06-10-2006 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Iname
06-10-2006 1:46 PM


Re: no deception
Good topic, Iname!
Here is my 2 cents:
1) Look at the Pharisees. They knew everything there was to know about the laws of religion--and they followed them to a tee...but Jesus criticized them for not having the proper intentions and heart to go with their legalism.>>>>> Perhaps in the same way, NOW it is not about the science of the universe where humanity falls short. It is about our intentions, thoughts, and behaviors.....
Perhaps in the soul of the human animal, 1000 years IS like a day in that we are not really any different than our caveman ancestors were even though we are hundreds of thousands of years apart agewise (evolution) we are but a day removed from them in terms of common sense.
2) I don't believe that God is deceiving anyone. We are without excuse. We can point at the Bible and say that we don't trust the God portrayed therein, giving us our excuse.
God, on the other hand, could point to us and say that since we chose to reject the Bible, we are being judged on our understanding, behavior, and in regards to what we do know.

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Replies to this message:
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lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 10 of 75 (319962)
06-10-2006 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
06-10-2006 1:54 PM


Re: no deception
We can point at the Bible and say that we don't trust the God portrayed therein, giving us our excuse.
What about the other revelations? Those of the Hindu's for example. Why aren't you using them as your excuse?
God, on the other hand, could point to us and say that since we chose to reject the Bible, we are being judged on our understanding, behavior, and in regards to what we do know.
The Bible isn't aware of itself as a book. It's a bunch of different scrolls of writings that people have compiled. Why wouldn't God point to your rejection of the Upanishads? Or Tao te Ching?
Your argument is totally sectartian. That the God the Jews understood is not the God of other people, that they had sole monopoly on communicating with the source of the universe who denied it to anyone else. That God only dealt with a very limited number of people, many of whom didn't have a very spiritual understanding when compared to people like Buddha, Lao Tzu, the authors of the Upanishads, or Ramana for example.
I think God would not want you only to pay attention to small exclusive judgemental self righteous sects but to the full range of understanding and revelation, much of which is much better sourced, preserved, and accounted for than that of the Judeo Christian collection of copies of copies of books assembled and variously translated into various collections called Bibles. I quite imagine he could ask you why you haven't availed yourself of the remarkably recent, clear, complete information that Shri Ramana Maharshi has given us about the source of the universe. And seriously, why haven't you?
lfen

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 11 of 75 (319972)
06-10-2006 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Iname
06-10-2006 1:46 PM


Re: no deception
But is it not his fault if he creates a situation knowing full well that it would be misinterpreted beforehand? He could have just as easily made the Universe suitable to his taste and yet internally consistent.
here is your problem. You assume God would have to be morally accountable for man's perspective and in particular your perspective so much so it is wrong if you misunderstand or misinterpret something. Basically, this is like the whiney child that complains the world isn't perfect for them.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 12 of 75 (319973)
06-10-2006 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Percy
06-10-2006 7:13 AM


Re: No Deception Atol.
In other words, what is the Christian perspective on evidence put in place for no other purpose than to give an appearance of age that does not in reality exist?
Maybe the appearance of age, or actually even the age itself, appeared after it was initially created?
Think of it like a computer program that generates a story, but if something changes in the programming, the story changes from beginning to end.

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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 13 of 75 (319979)
06-10-2006 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by randman
06-10-2006 2:41 PM


Re: no deception
quote:
You assume God would have to be morally accountable for man's perspective and in particular your perspective so much so it is wrong if you misunderstand or misinterpret something. Basically, this is like the whiney child that complains the world isn't perfect for them.
So many believers have claimed that our moral sense, our sense of right and wrong, comes directly from God.
Indeed, Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and became as one of us, according to God Himself.
So, if we are like Adam and Eve; like God in our knowledge of good and evil as it says in Genesis that we are, can we not also judge God's actions or inactions?

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 14 of 75 (319982)
06-10-2006 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by nator
06-10-2006 2:59 PM


Re: no deception
So many believers have claimed that our moral sense, our sense of right and wrong, comes directly from God
But our selfishness and depravity stems from our sin, and thinking God is wrong because He made the world in a manner where not every answer is clear is the result of that depravity.

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Shh
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 75 (319993)
06-10-2006 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by randman
06-10-2006 2:44 PM


Re: No Deception Atol.
Hi Randman,
You said...
Think of it like a computer program that generates a story, but if something changes in the programming, the story changes from beginning to end.
But don't you now have to think up a reason for God to have made this occur? And what changed in the story?
Also if this is the case then the world was simultaneously, created in six days, and is as old as science suggests, in which case why argue for a young earth?

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