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Author | Topic: Is Something Wrong with Mother Earth? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Lysimachus Member (Idle past 5449 days) Posts: 380 Joined: |
Christians have held to the belief that as we near the end toward Christ's second coming, the natural disasters around the world will increase according to numerous verses throughout scripture. Yet atheists and geologists continue to hold to the idea that all of this is to be expected and natural phenomena. The idea may stand with the earth's crust and earthquakes and volcanoes. But what about the multiple storms hitting simultaneously around the globe? Is this natural?
ANSWER: Is Something Wrong with Mother Earth?MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest Videos Also, a quote from Review and Herald and the Great Controversy: The signs in the sun, moon, and stars have been fulfilled. Since that time earthquakes, tempests, tidal waves, pestilence, and famine have multiplied. The most awful destructions, by fire and flood, are following one another in quick succession. The terrible disasters that are taking place from week to week speak to us in earnest tones of warning, declaring that the end is near, that something great and decisive will soon of necessity take place. {RH, November 22, 1906 par. 4} And believe me, it is a lot worse today then it was in 1906. The warnings from scripture and inspiration are to be a wakeup call, both for sleeping believers as well as nonbelievers. Even now he [Satan] is at work. In accidents and calamities by sea and by land, in great conflagrations, in fierce tornadoes and terrific hailstorms, in tempests, floods, cyclones, tidal waves, and earthquakes, in every place and in a thousand forms, Satan is exercising his power. He sweeps away the ripening harvest, and famine and distress follow. He imparts to the air a deadly taint, and thousands perish by the pestilence. These visitations are to become more and more frequent and disastrous. Destruction will be upon both man and beast. "The earth mourneth and fadeth away," "the haughty people . . . do languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant." Isaiah 24:4, 5. GC 589, 590 Slowly but surely things are coming to a close. That standing reminder of the recent Tsunami that hit Southern Asia strikes home to the hearts of many. But even without the tsunami, disasters by storm are bad enough, and their increase is giving less and less natural explanation. Let these be a warning call to us so that we may not continue to kick against the pricks.
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AdminAsgara Administrator (Idle past 2561 days) Posts: 2073 From: The Universe Joined: |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17919 Joined: Member Rating: 6.6 |
Instead of relying on emotional appeals or rhetoric perhaps you could try using evidence. So what is the EVIDENCE that earthquakes, say, are getting worse ?
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Lysimachus writes: Even now he [Satan] is at work. In accidents and calamities by sea and by land, in great conflagrations, in fierce tornadoes and terrific hailstorms, in tempests, floods, cyclones, tidal waves, and earthquakes, in every place and in a thousand forms, Satan is exercising his power. He sweeps away the ripening harvest, and famine and distress follow. He imparts to the air a deadly taint, and thousands perish by the pestilence. These visitations are to become more and more frequent and disastrous. Destruction will be upon both man and beast. "The earth mourneth and fadeth away," "the haughty people . . . do languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant." Isaiah 24:4, 5. GC 589, 590 I don't know, but according to my Bible it wasn't Satan who was doing this. If you go up to the beginning of the chapter, you will find the following: "Behold, the Lord maketh the earth, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof." and verse 3, "for the Lord hath spoken this word." (King James version) So apparently God is doing this if you want to equate the situation in Isaiah with today.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
I agree about the haughty people though. There are a lot of haughty people around these days. I run into them all the time. But the problem is, I don't know if there are more haughty people now than in yesteryear. We don't have any stats on that, as far as I know.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1725 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
But even without the tsunami, disasters by storm are bad enough, and their increase is giving less and less natural explanation. What, exactly, do you think is happening that can't be explained by one or both of two factors: 1) Human populations are becoming more dense and more widespread; storms of the very same magnitiude might very well kill more people now than they might have 100 years ago, simply because there's more people in the path of the storm than 100 years ago. 2) Media saturation of the globe has made every disaster immediately avaliable to the viewing public; as a result the same event might have a vastly greater emotional impact on TV than it would had you read about it in the papers the next morning. In some cases media coverage or better disaster sensing mean we discover natural disasters we might not have known about otherwise. That hardly means that the number of disasters is increasing, or that they're getting worse - merely that we're getting better at detecing them, or delivering them with the maximum emotional punch.
And believe me, it is a lot worse today then it was in 1906. See, here's the thing. I don't believe you. Mostly, because you haven't provided any evidence. But, you know. Head for the hills, or the caves, or whatever. More room for the rest of us.
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berberry Inactive Member |
This seems to be no more than a slight variation on other threads currently running but since it's been opened:
Even now he [Satan] is at work. In accidents and calamities by sea and by land, in great conflagrations, in fierce tornadoes and terrific hailstorms, in tempests, floods, cyclones, tidal waves, and earthquakes, in every place and in a thousand forms, Satan is exercising his power. What utter crap! We know how to explain each and every one of the natural forces listed. This is why people are, in a way, so much more stupid than the ancients were. We know better; they didn't. These are natural forces, yet people think a war between the gods is about to break out and we've all got to get "saved" before it happens. The arrogance of these dolts in suggesting that we have it any way worse than people did in the past, say in the middle ages for instance, is galling. There were no warnings for any type of natural disaster back then. A common, garden variety thunderstorm would often burn down entire neighborhoods, towns or cities. Disease was a constant reminder of mortality; no one lived long without losing dear friends and family members. Economic and social injustice were institutionalized. Civil wars were common in western societies. People's religious affiliations were decided for them, and forced conversions from one faith to another and back were all too frequent. Yet somehow we've got it worse today. What lunacy. And by the way, it's tsunami, not tidal wave. God, the ignorance! Keep America Safe AND Free!
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Lysimachus Member (Idle past 5449 days) Posts: 380 Joined: |
PaulK,
quote: I never said there is any evidence that earthquakes are getting worse. The point of this thread is to demonstrate how we find no link between the earthquakes and volcanoes and the simultaneous storms hitting the globe. There is no El-Nino effect here. I'm simply raising a point of this unexplained issue that MSNBC raised, and then paralleling it with scripture and a couple Spirit of Prophecy statements. robinrohan,
quote:quote: I don't believe you are taking the statement in correct context. Be aware that the author of that statement says in various other places that these are from God. It would be unwise to be inflexible as to the proper interpretation of the bible verse you are making. Let me ask a question. According to scripture, does the devil mean to do good or harm? Obviously he means harm, and wishes no good for any. So when we see tempests, floods, hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, disease, pestilence, etc., are these the works of God or Satan? It depends on how you look at it. Satan is the one who does the actual inflicting, but it is God who does it in a sense because He allows Satan to take over. How does he allow Satan to take over? By withdrawing His spirit from the earth as its wickedness increases. Therefore, God allows Satan to have more and more control. An example for this is Job: Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. We agree that it was Satan who was inflicting Job with all the suffering, correct? But yet in this verse we see God adhere to the responsibility of Job’s life! So who inflicts calamities and suffering upon the earth? The answer is both. As wickedness increases, God withdraws His protection allowing Satan to take control. [Note: This does not mean that god Himself does not personally execute judgment. Examples such the destruction of Nadab and Abihu and Annanias and Sapphira. But when we are speaking in context of suffering (disease, pestilence, calamities, etc. and not instant death), we understand that it is Satan who is inflicting this suffering. If it were completely up to Satan, he would annihilate the entire planet, but God only permits him to go so far. Satan's final destruction will come after God can see that a faithful few have had the victory over sin on their own individual efforts with the help of God.] Based on this proper understanding, when a statement is made that Satan inflicts these things, it in no way contradicts with the verses from the Bible that state God is doing it. I'm surprised you did not grasp this concept before. This is old-hat Christian understanding.
quote: I don't think any national survey team would be interested in conducting a survey on who's haughty and who's not. To sum it up, it's not hard to see a lot of proud people around. Why look at Trump, lol! When you see Trump, do you see a humble man? You can see it in the guy that he's out to make himself known. Just to name one. crashfrog,
quote: I'm accused of not providing evidence, but yet what evidence do you provide for your theory? Sure, I agree that as the population increases the number of individuals who suffer from storms will increase. There's no doubt in my mind. But simply because there is a rise in population, does this necessarily "prove" that this is the explanation for apparent increase in storms? I don’t believe satellites and satellite images are basing their statistics off the numbers of storms based on population. Within the last 40 or so years we have been able to tell what storms hit where and how many there are. Sure, more people will be killed from them, but does this mean there aren’t more storms than before? Of course not!
quote: And you are sure of this? Is this your logical explanation to ditch anything that may have a religious connotation to it regarding catastrophes? If so, I'd say it's a rather poor one. Tell me, back in 1960, if a Tsunami hit Indonesia the same size of today, you mean to tell me the world would not have heard about it? But we're also talking about MAJOR storms today. The sizes of these storms are of such enormity that they would have been heard of years ago. For example, I don’t think it takes much media attention to comprehend that we have never had so many hurricanes strike in such quick succession on the south coast of the US. We had hurricane Charlie, Frances, Jeanne, and Ivan all hit in quick succession the coasts of Florida and the Gulf of Mexico. How much media attention do you need to know that these were major? Your argument is more than flawed.
quote:quote: Wasn't it Buzsaw or someone who provided you a whole bunch of statistics and evidence? A while back I remember him utter demolishing some of you who claimed there was no increase in natural disasters. He provided you graphs, links, and statistics showing that there has been a global increase? And tell me, if it were true that there is NO question whatsoever that there is an increase, why would MSNBC even make such a remark as this: "But wait a minute what about all the wicked weather? Floods are happening everywhere: from western England the worst in 40 years to Estonia, Finland and Ohio. Then there's the so-called "pineapple express" battering the Western United States. Is it the result of another warm Pacific Ocean El Nio event?" I personally do not have any evidence with statistics, but I’m not here to prove anything, only to raise the same question MSNBC raised. I do know, however, that I’ve read enough info on the web to conclude there is ample reason to suggest a rise in natural disasters world-wide.
quote: Where do you get your ideas from? Where in the Bible does it say that Christians will run to the caves and hills to get away from natural disasters? Running to the caves and hills is not because of that, but because this will be the time when the wicked are out to persecute them. When the wicked say "it is better for a few to perish than all the world to perish", then the Christians know to run. I believe that like in the time of Nero, it will be God's true Christians who will be blamed for the increase of natural disasters. They will say that it is God who is sending these judgments punishing the earth because they have not punished these upstarts who are unwilling to comply with the beast power whom they will claim "is from God". But this beast power will be nothing more than Satan impersonating Christ, deceiving if possible the very elect. However, God will protect His faithful and in the end will proclaim "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus". berberry,
quote: Absolute bogus! What utter failure in proper comprehension! What you fail to comprehend is that there has been no link found between the earthquakes and volcanoes and the simultaneous storms hitting the globe. Sure there are explanations for all of these forces listed. God put the laws of nature in place, so thus the storms will be causes by a natural explanation! When he causes something, He causes the natural explanation to cause it! That’s part of the whole thing! The increase of natural disasters will also have an increase of their causes! You sound sooo foolish! I wonder how much worse things will have to get before you will wake up and see what a deplorable condition you are in. I’m sorry if that may sound too harsh, but I cannot help but say it when I see the sort of malice against Christianity exhibited in your quote above.
quote: More of this rubbish. Now I see the line of reasoning you embark upon--Especially when I see your technicalities about the words tsunami and tidal wave. LOL. But who says I was even comparing the two words? You just read into that. The subject is storms and disasters, not comparing these two words. Deliver me! WE ARE TALKING ABOUT NATURAL DISASTERS WITHIN THE LAST 50-60 YEARS! And no, I have not stated once that we have it worse today. We do have it better today in that we are more prepared to handle natural disasters and diseases. But this does not stop the fact that they are on the increase, and that even the media is adhering to an awareness of their increase. What lunacy to bring in the middle ages and civil wars into this. There is a big difference between increase and being able to handle the increase. This message has been edited by Lysimachus, 01-13-2005 14:09 AM ~Lysimachus
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CK Member (Idle past 4386 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
There is lots of the usual waffle in there - the only important bit is this:
quote: Just our usual leap in the dark..... So are you saying in the past there were no storms happening when earthquakes occured? or something else? All you have is some ideas and a book of stories - anything in the way of evidence for us to look at?
quote: Remind me - how many times have the christians thought that the end is upon us? just the last 1000 years will be fine. This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 01-13-2005 14:33 AM
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PaulK Member Posts: 17919 Joined: Member Rating: 6.6 |
If you look at your original post you will see that the emphasisied text clearly refers to earthquakes - and the source was written in the year of the San Francisco earthquake. What is more, you claimed that the current situation was even worse.
Prophecy also implicates earthquakes. At least one prophecy you are relying on explicitly mentions earthquakes (Mark 13:8). But it does not mention storms at all. So where's your case ? Which prophecies explicitly refer to storms ? Why isn't the lack of an increase in earthquakes significant ? What is the evidence that storms are getting worse - on a global scale - than they have been at other points in the last 2000 years ? I will comment on one thing more. In your reply to berberry you states:
quote: Yet in your original post you state:
quote:
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1725 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
I'm accused of not providing evidence, but yet what evidence do you provide for your theory? My theory that the Earth's human population is growing? Pardon me, but I wasn't aware that was a controversial proposition. Nonetheless, if you insist:
There's no doubt in my mind. But simply because there is a rise in population, does this necessarily "prove" that this is the explanation for apparent increase in storms? To what increase in storms are you referring?
I personally do not have any evidence with statistics, but I’m not here to prove anything, only to raise the same question MSNBC raised. What I think is funny is when people on things like Fox news ask these questions, implying that the only reasonable explanation is that we're living in the Biblical end times, and then an hour later they're excoriating "wacko environmentalists" and trying to prove that there's no such thing as global warming, when increased storm activity is the natural result of increased atmospheric temperatures. But I guess I'd like to see some evidence of this proposed increase in storm activity. One criticism of the "no-global-warming" crowd has at least some merit - it's very hard to posit actual changes in atmospheric conditions given that we haven't been keeping track for all that long.
Where do you get your ideas from? Where in the Bible does it say that Christians will run to the caves and hills to get away from natural disasters? Running to the caves and hills is not because of that, but because this will be the time when the wicked are out to persecute them. When the wicked say "it is better for a few to perish than all the world to perish", then the Christians know to run. I believe that like in the time of Nero, it will be God's true Christians who will be blamed for the increase of natural disasters. They will say that it is God who is sending these judgments punishing the earth because they have not punished these upstarts who are unwilling to comply with the beast power whom they will claim "is from God". But this beast power will be nothing more than Satan impersonating Christ, deceiving if possible the very elect. However, God will protect His faithful and in the end will proclaim "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus". ... It's like a kind of English-language glossolalia. Tell ya what. I'll make a prophecy too. I predict that everything you say will appear to come to pass, because Christians will make sure it does. They'll literally work to make sure they're persecuted, and they'll head for the hills as people chase them up there with pitchforks, and they'll watch as their theocracy is surplanted by more legitimate belief systems and sources of ethics, and you know what will happen then? Nothing. Absolutely nothing, just like every other time the "end times" have been predicted. And the rest of us will all be better off because the Christian theocrats will have finally got out of the way of real human community.
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berberry Inactive Member |
Lysimachus writes:
quote: Where did I say there was a link? Sounds to me like you're trying to establish a link: the gods are angry and they're coming after us. The Indian Ocean earthquake and tsunami were linked, of course.
quote: Bullshit! Prove it. Show me your evidence. The scientific explanations for these disasters have absolutely nothing to do with God. Why would God do something like this to all those little children in Asia? If we assume that he would do such a thing to children, why in hell do you worship the asshole? He's a megalomaniac, far worse than Hitler!
quote: What sounds harsh is your nonsense about God slaughtering poor, innocent children.
quote: It wasn't your mistake. It was the mistake of the clod you quoted.
quote: THEN SHOW ME THE STATISTICS YOUR STUPID IDEA IS BASED UPON! Keep America Safe AND Free!
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Loudmouth Inactive Member |
The only problem with this theory is that much worse disasters have happened in the past.
1. Black Plague. Not only did this disease kill of 25% of asia and europe, but it was made worse by terrible weather that ruined some growing seasons. Both disease and famine were commmon. No second coming. 2. Supervolcanoes. The last big supervolcanoe to erupt was Toba. There was a mass extinction associated with event. In fact, the human population was thought to have been shrunk to a few thousand. No natural disaster, with respect to the human population, has ever equalled this event. A smaller supervolcanoe totally destroyed the civilization on the island of Thera. The island just blew up, presumably killing everyone on the island. This would have killed thousands, dwarfing the death toll of other modern day eruptions such as Mt. St. Helens. Don't forget about Pompei either. 3. Tsunamis. This latest tsunami is not that bad compared to other tsunamis that have occured in the time that humans have been on this earth. For instance, a giant landslide caused a mega-tsunami that ravaged stone age civilizations in the northern part of England. This tsunami dwarfs the most recent tsunami in the Indian ocean. These are but a few examples of worse disasters that have occured in man's lifetime. Recent changes in weather, disease, and natural disasters are not any worse than have occurred in the past. The problem is the memory span of humans. We often forget, even in our own lifetimes, how things were in the past. For instance, current winters always feel much colder than previous winters, even if the current season is warmer than those in the past. Diseases have killed off many more people in the past. Natural disasters have been far more severe and far reaching in the past than they are now. It is just human nature to overemphasize the present and tone down past events.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
lysimachus writes: It would be unwise to be inflexible as to the proper interpretation of the bible verse you are making. I don't know, I think I prefer to be pretty inflexible. That way we can at least be definite. When it says God did something, then I prefer to think the correct interpretation of the verse is that God did it, not Satan. When it says Satan did something, I prefer to think the correct interpretation of the verse is that Satan did it, not God--unless you want to suggest that Satan is God, which is a position I am not prepared to dispute. Of course there is a very general sense in which you can say that God does everything but that to me is too vague to be very useful. By your view, there is a sense in which I can say, when I do something, God is doing it, since "He permits it." But it might get pretty confusing if I went around talking that way. This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-13-2005 15:15 AM This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-13-2005 15:24 AM
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1725 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Black Plague. Not only did this disease kill of 25% of asia and europe, but it was made worse by terrible weather that ruined some growing seasons. Both disease and famine were commmon. No second coming. Not only that, it happened right around 1666. Boy, if that's not the time for the Antichrist to show up, what is?
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