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Author Topic:   Opinions and conclusions about Religion and God.
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 196 of 280 (326310)
06-26-2006 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Phat
06-26-2006 3:15 AM


Re: >>>>>>Father Ian<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Phat writes:
Iano writes:
The gospel is about killing people Phat - surely you know that.
I could argue this point, if just for practice.
I'd like to see that.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Phat, posted 06-26-2006 3:15 AM Phat has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 197 of 280 (326311)
06-26-2006 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Phat
06-19-2006 9:40 PM


Re: >>>>>>Father Ian<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Phat writes:
sometimes in our well meaning intentions, we drive people further from it.
Bang on the money Phat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Phat, posted 06-19-2006 9:40 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 198 of 280 (326318)
06-26-2006 5:35 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by Larni
06-26-2006 3:33 AM


Because you do not have psychic powers to predict the future.
Who needs psychic powers? I have the Bible haven't I? The God who met me happens to be the same one I subsequently found described in the Bible - and in a way which defies precision. And its power to comment, with self-same precision, on all manner of things to do with man and his nature has only increased the regard with which I hold it.
An eclectic collection of books written by some nomads over a few thousand years. That case is laughed out of my court Larni. And it's only my court that matters to me.
You couldn't make it up.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Larni, posted 06-26-2006 3:33 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Larni, posted 06-26-2006 8:00 AM iano has replied
 Message 201 by Phat, posted 06-26-2006 9:45 AM iano has replied
 Message 208 by ramoss, posted 06-26-2006 11:13 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 199 of 280 (326319)
06-26-2006 5:36 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by Larni
06-26-2006 3:38 AM


Re: >>>>>>Father Ian<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
ometimes in our well meaning intentions, we drive people further from it.
Bang on the money Phat.
That will NOT be an excuse come that day
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Larni, posted 06-26-2006 3:38 AM Larni has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 200 of 280 (326337)
06-26-2006 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by iano
06-26-2006 5:35 AM


Iano writes:
You couldn't make it up.
Yes you could.
Iano writes:
And it's only my court that matters to me.
Fair enough. That is the meaning you attach to your experience. But I would hazard that you infer meaning from you experince only.
Iano writes:
That will NOT be an excuse come that day
This does not sound like the carrot of xianity. More akin to the stick of xianity. Tell me Iano, what is the excuse for the millions who died before hearing of xianity? Do the neanderthals go to hell?
Edited by Larni, : Oh just some more of the same.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by iano, posted 06-26-2006 5:35 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by iano, posted 06-26-2006 12:28 PM Larni has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 201 of 280 (326375)
06-26-2006 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by iano
06-26-2006 5:35 AM


Here come da judge!
Iano writes:
An eclectic collection of books written by some nomads over a few thousand years. That case is laughed out of my court Larni. And it's only my court that matters to me.
Allow me to present a premise to the court, if I may.
Premise: There are two imaginations. Gods imagination and our own vain imagination. We can either imagine our own (and other folks) destinies based on our own prophecy (foreseeing) or we can allow Gods Spirit..His creative imagination...to become our vision.
when man imagines, proposes, or prophecys, we often do so out of our own vanity.
vanityn, pl -ties 1 : something that is vain, empty, or useless 2 : the quality or fact of being useless or futile : futility 3 : undue pride in oneself or one's appearance : conceit 4 : a small case for cosmetics : compact
NIV writes:
Ezek 13:1-3
13:1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel who are now prophesying. Say to those who prophesy out of their own imagination: 'Hear the word of the LORD! 3 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to the foolish prophets who follow their own spirit and have seen nothing!
See Iano, I feel that God draws all men (and women) unto Himself. I dont believe that we have to go sell religion to every ignorant rube on the street corner. I wont go so far as to assert that every word that comes out of my mouth is productive, mind you! I believe, however, that just as God judges the hearts and intentions of us, so too does He reward those who diligently seek Him.
There may well be only One way to God. That way is through relationship with His character, His vision, and His Spirit.
Remember, also, that we do not begin this work in and of ourselves. God draws all unto Himself.
I dont EVER tell anyone that they are headed for Hell unless they listen to me. Jesus never told anyone this either, (Except the Church/religious folk of His day).
The closest I ever come to preaching is my signature....(which is mean't to be more contemplative than instructive)
I rest my case in Ianos court. How does the Judge find me?

“There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, "All right, then, have it your way” --C.S.Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by iano, posted 06-26-2006 5:35 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by iano, posted 06-26-2006 10:30 AM Phat has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 202 of 280 (326403)
06-26-2006 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by Phat
06-26-2006 9:45 AM


Re: Here come da judge!
Premise: There are two imaginations. Gods imagination and our own vain imagination. We can either imagine our own (and other folks) destinies based on our own prophecy (foreseeing) or we can allow Gods Spirit..His creative imagination...to become our vision.
I think there is more overlap than this in practice but for the moment: agreed. Lets assume for the sake of argument that the latter is my general position and the former is yours. In which case...
Woe to the foolish prophets who follow their own spirit and have seen nothing!
...would apply to yourself. We are left with our own convictions at the end of the day Phat.
I don't predicts anyones destiny. I say what their destiny will be should they die in the spiritual condition they are at the moment. That is not a prediction about their destination - that is a certainty...unless they believe.
You seem to have a problem pointing that fact out. I do not.
See Iano, I feel that God draws all men (and women) unto Himself.I don't believe that we have to go sell religion to every ignorant rube on the street corner. I wont go so far as to assert that every word that comes out of my mouth is productive, mind you! I believe, however, that just as God judges the hearts and intentions of us, so too does He reward those who diligently seek Him.
I believe that "the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes (it)". That is what I will present and that is what I will argue should anyone seek to evade it or dismantle it. And as long as the door is open then that is the suitcase of goods I will hold out.
I have spend time here taking about Gods Love, his Wrath and his Justice. I have explained that all three (not that there aren't other) attributes are to be reckoned with - equally. Mans corruption, mans sin, mans hatred of God, mans destiny (should he remain in Adam) are the ones that people avoid and rail up against most - and for good reason. It should be expected that people will pay lip service and nod in intellectual agreement to a Fluffy Christ Gospel. I asked you to examine the reaction of people to the gospel in the book of Acts. Did you take note?
There may well be only One way to God. That way is through relationship with His character, His vision, and His Spirit.
There IS only one way to God. Through Christ. All the rest is diluted soft focus.
I dont EVER tell anyone that they are headed for Hell unless they listen to me. Jesus never told anyone this either, (Except the Church/religious folk of His day).
I never say "you are headed to Hell unless you listen to me" either. I tell them they are headed to Hell because they are born on that path. That is what the gospel says. If they reject that it is not me they were not listening to it was the gospel. I'm a mere messanger boy, Phat. And in the words of John A. Davision may I request that you "write that down"
The closest I ever come to preaching is my signature....(which is meant to be more contemplative than instructive)
Perhaps you would contemplate instructing more?
I rest my case in Ianos court. How does the Judge find me?
I consider you as one who uses the instruction "let the love of Christ within you shine out to a lost and needy world" as if it were the only arrow in the quiver. There is a place for that, Phat. No doubt about it. But that is not the gospel. That is how we are to live. The gospel is a mechanical beast. Comprehensible in legal and forensic fashion. It includes Hell, Gods wrath and fury and talk of the Judgement to come.
It needs mentioning.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Phat, posted 06-26-2006 9:45 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by CK, posted 06-26-2006 10:41 AM iano has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 203 of 280 (326409)
06-26-2006 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by iano
06-26-2006 10:30 AM


Re: Here come da judge!
quote:
I have explained that all three (not that there aren't other) attributes are to be reckoned with - equally.
I never get that impression from your posts - you always seem more keen on either the vague or explict threats that seem to go hand in hand with your type of belief. Phat does seem to fall on the opposite side of the fence in the way you have described.
Having said that I don't think I've ever seen anyone manage to combine the "fluffy" jesus and your stance on the matter here in any coherent manner. Most of the (christian) posters seem to rely pretty much on one or the other.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by iano, posted 06-26-2006 10:30 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by iano, posted 06-26-2006 11:08 AM CK has replied
 Message 206 by jar, posted 06-26-2006 11:10 AM CK has not replied

  
hunchentoot
Inactive Junior Member


Message 204 of 280 (326415)
06-26-2006 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Gary
06-12-2006 2:22 PM


Re: Interesting topic
Hi there.
I really couldn't have put that better myself. That's what really gets me about religion, maybe people do help others because it's nice to be nice, but i can't help feeling that people are nice because they believe they'll be rewarded for it when they get to heaven. It seems incredibly mercenary and shallow. What if you didn't believe in any afterlife, karma etc and you we're nice, and you did help your fellow man out. This seems a much more worthwhile person to be, or aspire to be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Gary, posted 06-12-2006 2:22 PM Gary has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by iano, posted 06-26-2006 12:44 PM hunchentoot has not replied
 Message 221 by Larni, posted 06-26-2006 5:05 PM hunchentoot has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 205 of 280 (326417)
06-26-2006 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by CK
06-26-2006 10:41 AM


Re: Here come da judge!
I never get that impression from your posts - you always seem more keen on either the vague or explict threats that seem to go hand in hand with your type of belief.
Talk of hell and damnation etc are, I find, good ways to generate conversation about God. For it raises the hackles in a person - in the sense that most consider themselves worthy of heaven ("if it turns out that it exists afterall"). The catchphrase I have heard so often as to render it a truism of peoples view of themselves is:
"I'm not so bad - God (if he exists) won't condemn me surely"
Addressing the core problem of man: he is a sinner and stands condemned in Gods sight as it is, seems to me to be the best place to concentrate. Man hates being told he is a sinner.
ps: A threat takes the form "Do this or else". The Gospel says that man can do nothing to ensure his own salvation. A threat it cannot be.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by CK, posted 06-26-2006 10:41 AM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by CK, posted 06-26-2006 11:10 AM iano has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 206 of 280 (326418)
06-26-2006 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by CK
06-26-2006 10:41 AM


Re: Here come da judge!
Having said that I don't think I've ever seen anyone manage to combine the "fluffy" jesus and your stance on the matter here in any coherent manner. Most of the (christian) posters seem to rely pretty much on one or the other.
I'm not quite sure what the "fluffy jesus" point of view is or who it is that expresses whatever it is. I do see the term get tossed around pretty freely.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by CK, posted 06-26-2006 10:41 AM CK has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 207 of 280 (326419)
06-26-2006 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by iano
06-26-2006 11:08 AM


Re: Here come da judge!
Iano writes:
For it raises the hackles in a person - in the sense that most consider themselves worthy of heaven ("if it turns out that it exists afterall").
But how does that tactic work with those who don't believe in Heaven to start with? The "if it exists" isn't really a consideration for someone like me. I guess it's one that's more effective with people who are questioning or considering the christian religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by iano, posted 06-26-2006 11:08 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by iano, posted 06-26-2006 11:24 AM CK has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 208 of 280 (326421)
06-26-2006 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by iano
06-26-2006 5:35 AM


Who needs psychic powers? I have the Bible haven't I? The God who met me happens to be the same one I subsequently found described in the Bible - and in a way which defies precision. And its power to comment, with self-same precision, on all manner of things to do with man and his nature has only increased the regard with which I hold it.
Of course, you found the god you were looking for in the bible. Every one that looks for 'God' in the bible and finds it finds a different god. I know many christians who 'found' a god in the bible that is totally different than the one that you seem to believe in. That is known as a 'self fullfilling prophecy' in some respects. You found what you expected, just as they found what they expected.
While Larni couldn't make it up.. you could. You made up the god you wanted to find, and you found it. Just as countless others have before you.
That is why many Muslims believe in the Koran. The god they expect is in that set of books. That is why there are so many devote Mormons. They found the god (or something) in the Book of the Mormon.
The same thing with Hindu's and the vedas.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by iano, posted 06-26-2006 5:35 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by iano, posted 06-26-2006 1:00 PM ramoss has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 209 of 280 (326426)
06-26-2006 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by CK
06-26-2006 11:10 AM


Re: Here come da judge!
But how does that tactic work with those who don't believe in Heaven to start with?
See . People who don't believe in God or heaven raise very similar objections to those who say they do believe. Some use biblical analysis as a tool of rebuttal, others use rational argument based on common sense and common justice.
But the differences aren't all that great in fact. And it is not surprising really. A person who is not saved and who doesn't believe in God sails in the same ship as the person who isn't saved and who does believe in God (of their own construction).
quote:
The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe, first for the Jew (read: Religious) then for the Gentile (read: irreligious)
ps: it worked on me. I was one of the irreligious
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by CK, posted 06-26-2006 11:10 AM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by CK, posted 06-26-2006 11:36 AM iano has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 210 of 280 (326429)
06-26-2006 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by iano
06-26-2006 11:24 AM


Re: Here come da judge!
quote:
ps: it worked on me. I was one of the irreligious
Thing is - it's never worked here - not once. In fact you could make a better case for the christians (not all but some) here actually turning more people away from the religion that the reverse.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by iano, posted 06-26-2006 11:24 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by iano, posted 06-26-2006 11:53 AM CK has not replied

  
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