Who can be saved? A Christian perspective

I dont think that God could care less about who believes in Him or not...but I agree that it would likely NOT become a deal breaker. Not entirely. I agree with you in that Christianity (or being like Jesus) involves doing and not simply believing. I disagree that belief is unimportant, but I'm not sure why I cling to that belief apart from the fact that it was always emphasized in my earlier learning.One thing I will say--again--about Matthew 25: Just as you say that you cannot imagine a God who cares whether or not we believe in Her, I cannot imagine a God who would condemn any group of people to eternal punishment....no matter what they do or don't do.I try and feed people. Cloth them. Volunteer where I can. I likely don't do enough of it...but what standard does God expect?I realize it makes little sense to skate off with a free pass, but keep in mind that another parable had workers who only worked an hour getting as much compensation as those who worked all day.To me, eternal punishment is extreme even for satan.(or Hitler...take your pick)

This idea of a "free pass" so completely misses the point. Being saved means being changed, changed into a spiritual being capable of doing good works in the right spirit.Ephesians 2:10: Jesus had to die in our place to pay for our deserved eternity in Hell so that we could be changed in these ways. There was no other way for that to be accomplished. Any righteous good deeds we do without salvation through Christ amount to nothing in God's eyes: Good deeds that God recognizes are those He commissions us to do through the Holy Spirit, which cannot be done in our mere fallen flesh.Death entered as a consequence of the Fall, and we lost contact with God because of the disobedience that brought about the Fall, and the Fall had to be corrected before any human being could recover the fellowship Adam and Eve had had with God before they disobeyed. Believing in Christ's death opens us to receiving the Holy Spirit through whom we have spiritual powers of obedience and love of God we don't possess in our natural fallen state. This is no "get out of jail free" card, this is a total transformation that will ultimately fit us for an entirely new life in communication with God. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed broken quote

I agree with you that there is a transformation involved. Our critics would likely assert, however, that if people actually can and do get saved...and are thus transformed...where is the evidence of such transformation?The very responses and behaviors that you or I exhibit in these debates are indictments for or against any alleged transformation that we claim to have received.Look at the established church in general. What evidence is there for wholesale transformation? We have Christians who still believe in US Nationalism as a God given right. WWJD? How would Jesus fit in with todays culture?

But it was not extreme to the folk writing the dialog for the Jesus character in the story.But the two parables actually have much in common.The issue is not how much you do, or even what you do, but rather why you do it. Works don't buy you passage but not doing works and doing works for the wrong reason can condemn you according to the story.The Goats were all believers, all followers, all people who would do anything for Jesus. Jesus tells them, "Sorry Charlie but you just didn't get it."

You are right up to a point, but only up to a point. EvC is quite a test and I fail it quite a bit. The flesh remains powerful. Getting angry at personal attacks is wrong.But God doesn't want us to tolerate attacks on Him; that only encourages unbelievers in the wrong direction.2 Chronicles 19:2 Jehoshaphat had been helping Ahab who with his wife Jezebel honored the prophets of Baal and denied the God of Israel. The above passage says God's wrath has come against Jehoshaphat for that. Christians these days often make the mistake of thinking that loving our enemies means loving God's enemies, but that is very wrong and dangerous. Of course we are to treat everyone with kindness and concern for their basic wellbeing, but respecting their blasphemies and treating their sins as not sins is not loving them.Tolerating such denigrating falsehoods as the idea that Paul or other Christians "market" Christianity is not a good thing in God's eyes, nor is tolerance shown for things God clearly condemns in the Bible, such as homosexual acts. Loving the homosexual doesn't mean pretending sin is not sin. Also we should be kind to Muslims personally, but treating their belief as equal to our own is a big mistake and an offense to God. Islam hates Christ, says God has no Son etc., and advocates killing Christians, yet there are Christians who are willing to turn their churches over to the practices of Islam. This shows extreme hatred of God and brings judgment on the nation.As for US nationalism, I don't think that's the best way to understand the conservative political trend of Christians: the point is that conservatism supports Christian values and liberalism these days does not, though decades ago perhaps it did.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I shudder to think what some people must have been like before they changed. (Not pointing any fingers but....)

What a pile of utter stupidity. "our deserved eternity in hell" my arse. Thankfully, it's this sort of total bollox that is killing off your silly belief system. God killed his son so we could go to heaven - I mean, really.

Maybe you should read some of your old English Christian literature to find out what it's all about. How about Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress? I think that spells out the way of salvation.

I now exactly what it's all about - I had all that crap drummed into me from birth like everyone else did back then. It's all exactly what it looks like - a stack of made up nonsense exploited by powerful organisations to control a populous.It's interesting how few people buy into it once the training from the cradle stops. It's also interesting to see how neutered the belief system has become in order to keep those few engaged. A medieval peasant wouldn't recognise it.

A medieval peasant was generally not taught the truth, being under the thumb of Rome. It took some courageous men, a lot of English among them such as Wycliffe and Tyndale, to get the truth to them, often losing their own lives as a result.Every day people come to recognize the truth and get saved. As Jesus said "the gates of Hell will not prevail" against His church, it's going to last forever.

Yeh, yeh, only Faith knows the TRUTH about biology, geology, palaeontology, molecular biology, nuclear physics, astronomy and religion. What could possibly be wrong about this? The entire edifices of both science and religion are wrong - literally billions of people, scientists and non-scientists are wrong about the work and their beliefs but Faith is right?Even if you hadn't been proven totally wrong in all aspects, on a pure numbers game, I'm not taking those odds. It's crumbling around your ears Faith. You're an anachronism, your belief system is evolving itself out of existence. Another dozen generations or so and there'll be nothing recognisable left of it. But that's not your problem.

A remark about the medieval peasant (who was deprived of the Bible by the Roman church) sent you on that rant? Wow. I've read a lot of Christian history and I do know a lot, not nearly as much as I wish I did but a lot, and far more than most Christians. Is that so strange?I also know quite a bit about the UK's illustrious Christian history, which isn't so illustrious any more though there are still some solid British Christians.Methinks you protest too much. I don't know why but your emotion about it all is rather extreme.I know two sciences are wrong because I believe the Bible. You inflate that absurdly. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Many more than two Faith. Pretty much all of them. The point about science is that it all fits together - if it didn't we'd know something was wrong. It's this co-incidence of observation that kills you every time.You think you can invent ad hoc explanations for geological records, radioactive isotope decay, astronomical time measurement, biological evolution, fossil records, tree ring growth, ice records, shells on mountains, plate techtonics, molecular genetics, archaelogy, anthropology and on and on. You can't because they all interact with each other and also prove you wrong individually. I haven't even started. Not only do you dismiss out of hand pretty much all of known science in favour of a redicuous iron-age myth, you also dismiss all other religions and belief systems too - including the vast majority of your very OWN Christian brothers.It's an utterly ludicrous position.

Well, truth is truth, it trumps all the lies fallen humanity can dream up, and that's a lot, and I've studied Christian theology enough to know what's true and what isn't.However, you do exaggerate about science, because there is nothing in the Bible against true science, the science that gets rockets to distant planets, that invents medical systems that save lives, and even genetic engineering which I may object to ethically but not as science. And there is no objection to the many true observstions in biology or geology either, just to the wacko theory-skewed interpretations thereof.True science is useful, but there is nothing whatever about the vaporings about the distant past, either the biological past or the geological past, that is useful at all, and that includes the wacko interpretations of otherwise factual observations in terms of evo and OE theory.

You do realise that the radiometric dating that you so readily hand wave away is widely used in the exploration for mineral deposits? But maybe all that copper in your computer is not useful at all...