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Author | Topic: Who can be saved? A Christian perspective | |||||||||||||||||||||||
crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
I can't wait to see the astonishment on the faces of many an atheist when they discover not only were they wrong, GOD has prepared a place for them at the barbeque. It'll be better'n any surprise party ever. This atheist, for one, will be supremely pissed off. You can bet that if I die and I find out that there's been a God that could have been fixing things and doing real work instead of sitting on his butt, well, it had better be a rib barbecue, because I'm gonna shove 'em bones and all right up his ass. There's real suffering in the world; good thing he's having a fuckin' cookout. I would be very, very worried if I were in your position - to believe that a God exists, but that this is the best he can do. God could explain himself, I guess. Maybe he's got a good reason. Nothing I've heard from people, though, even comes close. I should make it clear that I would be angry; not that I am now. I bear no anger towards that that does not exist.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Prove it - you asserted it. Doesn't work like that. He who makes the positive assertion - that an entity exists - must prove. Not he who questions that assertion.
Now you can see were this friendly message gets you Jar What's friendly about the arrogant presumption of my reations? Moreover, what was unfriendly about my most? Jar made a mistake about how I would react; I merely corrected him.
Thus, Crashfrog - I fully expect that you are indeed as good as your word - and go about ending "real suffering in the world" because of your words against Jar's post. I do what I can. But then, nobody claims that I have infinite power over life and death, now do they?
when infact he heals people even daily. Who? Who got healed today by God?
Because you see suffering - you assume God cannot exist - and/or has sat on his arse. Which, by definition, must be the case. The existence of unameliorated suffering is not consistent with the nature of God as he has been defined.
You cannot credit him with suffering alone, you're ignoring the good things people have claimed - from God. Irrelevant. The fact that you're doing ok in the UK doesn't change the fact that someone is starving to death in Ethiopia. God's blessings on you don't erase someone else's suffering.
Shall you spit it in his face? I'll say "that's a good start, but you couldn't have done any better? Show me why."
It's a lose-lose situation with these guys - and you have to learn it! Tell ya what. Keep your mouth shut about what atheists will or won't do, and I'll never have to talk to you again. But if you insist on insulting my beliefs, prepare to have the favor returned.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
What about all the times God has intervened to stop things - with you being ignorant of it? What times, specifically, are you referring to?
Example; Hambre is walking for the paper When did this happen? Why are you trying to substantiate the reality of an entity with hypothetical situations? That's like if I tried to say that Superman existed, and that we knew it because he saved people. "When?" you might ask. "For example," I reply, "you're falling off a building, and Superman swoops up to save you." "When did that happen?" you ask. "Well, it didn't," I reply. "It's hypothetical. But suppose it did!"
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Will you not be astonished to find out that there is a GOD and afterlife? No. I'll be pissed off, like I said.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
1) How was your relationship with your Dad or Father figure that you had while growing up? Is there any anger surrounding this situation? He was a great father, still is, and we keep in regular touch.
My guess(which is probably wrong) is that you had some issues in this area. You, in fact, are completely wrong. The reason I'm an atheist is not because I'm crazy or abused. The reason I'm an atheist is because I see no evidence of God's existence.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
It was you who asserted his none-existence though. Right. Which means that if you disagree, it's up to you to prove it.
If you want to start a new thread then do that, but what has this got to do with who can be saved? Fuck if I know. I didn't start this tangent.
So what if God asks why you didn't devote your life to this like Christ did? Because it doesn't pay the rent. But your God has none of my limitations and all the powers I don't have. His responsibility is therefore greater. As great, in fact, as is power to intercede.
And if after your argument with God was over, who would win? I'm ameinable to being convinced. If God can convince me that he did what he could, I'll accept that. But nothing I've heard so far is convincing. Your only argument so far has been that I'm a bad person for even daring to ask.
Listen, God has endowed us with the full capabilities to turn away from sin and selfishness, the problems for the innocent sufferers - is their uncaring human beings. God however - does provide food for me each day - you cannot only count the starving people - like Christ said - the last shall be first. And infact Christ still heals today - we have documented miracles that even doctors agree on. Blah blah blah. Irrelevant nonsense. You haven't addressed my point - suffering is inconsistent with a benevolent, all-powerful God. "Benevolent" means that God doesn't want us to suffer. "All-powerful" means that there are no obstacles to his intervention, if he wills it. So, the presence of suffering means that God is not one of those two things, or not either of them. The presence of suffering is inconsistent with the existence of a God who wants us not to suffer and has all the power to make it happen. By definition, this is true. It's irrefutable.
Would you die on a cross? If I had God's power, I wouldn't have to.
Weren't we just discussing salvation? It would seem we were discussing atheism, via Jar's post.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Okay - maybe my post was a lil long in my reply to you, still - I dunno what you're getting so stirred up about, you've in times past said that you don't recommend atheism. Yeah, but that doesn't mean that I want to be patronized in the way Jar's post was patronizing.
I still say you wanted an argument coming over here. No, I want legitimacy for my views on God, just like you do. I want theists to stop patronizing atheists. Every time I turn around, some theist is patting an atheist on the head and saying "that's nice, kid. Run along and let the adults talk." It grates.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
You views are "fair enough" in mike's book, I don't want to attack ur beliefs you see... Well, and likewise. I never mean to attack your beliefs, only your arguments, and only when I think they're wrong. It's fine for you to believe in God, and I would never presume to belittle someone for doing so. Though I have belittled those who advance faulty logic to try to convince others. I hope the distinction is clear.
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