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Author Topic:   Who can be saved? A Christian perspective
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 120 of 466 (149100)
10-11-2004 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by almeyda
10-11-2004 8:08 AM


Oxymoron Alert
Hi Al,
A nazi christian
What on God's green Earth is that?
Isn't 'Nazi Christian' an oxymoron, a bit like 'Creation Science'?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by almeyda, posted 10-11-2004 8:08 AM almeyda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by jar, posted 10-11-2004 11:11 AM Brian has replied
 Message 137 by almeyda, posted 10-12-2004 3:38 AM Brian has replied
 Message 145 by nator, posted 10-12-2004 11:23 AM Brian has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 122 of 466 (149107)
10-11-2004 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by jar
10-11-2004 11:11 AM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
But doesn't the fact that Christians are supposed to treat everyone as equal actually mean that these people were not Christians?
I would imagine that anyone who believed in their heart that Jesus conquered death at the resurrection would be incapable of mistreating others, so maybe they were not truly Christian?
Not everyone who calls me LORD will enter into heaven, surely you have to walk the walk to be a Christian?
Throughout history there have been some very, very bad Christians.
Shouldn't that be 'throughout history there have been some very very bad people who thought they were Christians'?
I really cannot see how 'Nazi' and 'Christian' can go together. Unless the Nazi believed that they were Christians.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by jar, posted 10-11-2004 11:11 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by jar, posted 10-11-2004 11:26 AM Brian has replied
 Message 125 by coffee_addict, posted 10-11-2004 11:31 AM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 124 of 466 (149110)
10-11-2004 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by jar
10-11-2004 11:26 AM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
Evidently not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by jar, posted 10-11-2004 11:26 AM jar has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 127 of 466 (149118)
10-11-2004 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by coffee_addict
10-11-2004 11:31 AM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
Hi Lam
I'd immagine that buz and his kind would disagree that hating homosexuals is the same thing as hating jews, but you get the idea.
I know what you are saying, but I don't consider Buzsaw, Whatever,RiverRat, Almeyda, Desdamona, Wise, and many others here to be Christian.
These people are not following the teachings of Jesus.
Jesus certainly never condemned homosexual's, but he did say to treat others as you would like to be treated. He did say that when you feed and clothe someone who is in need then you you feed and clothe him, he didn't make any exceptions.
If you want to go down the path of "he's not a christian because..." you will encounter a lot of hypocritical statements by many people.
There is nothing more hypocritical than someone who thinks they are a Christian. I have only met a handful of people that I think deserve the name, there are obviously many others, but I have only met a few, and I have met an awful lot of 'Christians'.
Personally, I think if someone is saved they behave in a Christ-like way, I do not see the people you mentioned acting like this.
But, the Bible makes up the rules for being a Christian, it also tells you what actions exclude you from being a Christian.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by coffee_addict, posted 10-11-2004 11:31 AM coffee_addict has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 128 of 466 (149119)
10-11-2004 11:50 AM


Back on Topic
Back on topic then LOL, sorry Jar.
When you say 'saved' in the OP, what exactly do you mean, saved from what?
Brian.

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 10-11-2004 11:55 AM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 131 of 466 (149123)
10-11-2004 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by jar
10-11-2004 11:55 AM


Re: Back on Topic
One of the criteria you present for being saved is to 'Love God', can you tell me how an atheist or a Buddhist will ever fulfil this?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 10-11-2004 11:55 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by jar, posted 10-11-2004 2:52 PM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 135 of 466 (149151)
10-11-2004 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by jar
10-11-2004 2:52 PM


Re: Back on Topic
Thanks for the links Jar.
I think your own interpretation is excellent, even although I don't agree with it LOL.
To me it seems that you are thinking along the lines that if you are a good person, help others, don't go out your way to hurt anyone, then you will be saved.
Regarding the atheist who acts like this, he/she will be loving (pleasing) God by their actions even although God never enters their thoughts when they are doing the good deeds.
It is a nice faith Jar, it is certainly more reasonable than mainstream Christianity and it would be great if it were True.
Cheers.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by jar, posted 10-11-2004 2:52 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 10-11-2004 5:36 PM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 139 of 466 (149389)
10-12-2004 4:15 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by jar
10-11-2004 5:36 PM


Re: Back on Topic
Mankind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 10-11-2004 5:36 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by jar, posted 10-12-2004 8:08 AM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 140 of 466 (149390)
10-12-2004 4:16 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by almeyda
10-12-2004 3:38 AM


Re: Oxymoron Alert
You are an atheist now are you?
It was you that made the statement, so how can you harmonise what a Nazi believes with what Jesus taught?
Cheers.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by almeyda, posted 10-12-2004 3:38 AM almeyda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by almeyda, posted 10-12-2004 7:31 AM Brian has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 143 of 466 (149409)
10-12-2004 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by jar
10-12-2004 8:08 AM


Re: Back on Topic
The gift is freely given and unconditional.
Except that the Bible provides the condition of having to believe in the ressurection.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
This looks very much like a condition to me.
You can get into heaven on the condition that you believe that Jesus died for your sins and believe that he conquered death at the resurrection.
I don't happen to believe that at all, and that is not only 'A' key belief of creedal christian churches, it is probably 'THE' key belief.
Jesus may well have loved all mankind whether they were a theif, murderer, whore, homosexual, or anything else, but he still places a condition on your entry to his kingdom. Only those that believe in his ressurection, truly believe it in their hearts will go into heaven. That's really what the sheep and the goats story is about, once you truly believe in your heart that Jesus is lord and saviour, it is only then that you feed him, clothe him, and visit him in prison.
Anyway, what if you didnt want to go to heaven, but you were a good and kind person, do you have a choice?
Cheers.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by jar, posted 10-12-2004 8:08 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by jar, posted 10-12-2004 9:32 AM Brian has replied
 Message 147 by 1.61803, posted 10-12-2004 4:34 PM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 148 of 466 (149476)
10-12-2004 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by jar
10-12-2004 9:32 AM


Re: Back on Topic
Hi Jar,
In particular, look at 19:21. Here, the message returns once again to behaviour, to actions, rather than simply acknowledgement or belief.
I see what you are getting at, but you cannot just ignore what comes before 19:21 as if it isn’t there.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
This is quite explicit; it is that Jesus came into the world to save it that at least puts you on the path to salvation. The text really does say if you do not believe in Jesus as saviour of the world then you are already condemned. Which is a bit of a problem for yours truly here LOL, my opinions of Jesus over the years have ranged from Saviour to conman, to revolutionary, to phantom, but I cannot see it going back to the Saviour stance again.
Again, it seems to me to be saying that actions speak louder than words. It's saying that what you do evidences your belief, not what you say.
Yes, but couldn’t it be that once you believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and Saviour that you feel compelled to help your fellow man and that good actions, Christ-like actions, are a natural follow on from belief in the resurrection and salvation through Jesus Christ?
This is what I see, and once believed, in the New Testament. I am not saying you are incorrect and I fully respect your faith, and I am not trying to be intentionally irritating, just trying to understand your personal faith.
I do not see John 3 and Matthew 25 as being in conflict. Instead, I believe they amplify each other.
Yes indeed they do, actions speak louder than words. I don’t think they conflict at all, I think the sheep know in their hearts that Jesus is Saviour of the world and their actions reflect Christ’s qualities. But the goats ‘believe’ that he is saviour and that’s all they do about it. But if they truly believed they would be doing something to help their neighbour.
I cannot imagine a loving GOD that would force anyone to live eternally. What a hell that would be. Instead, I would imagine that the individual would be given enough information to make an informed decision and that GOD would grant the individual's wish.
You know this is quite similar to Pure Land Buddhism, where a being can go to a Pure Land (Heaven) and be helped to Enlightenment by the resident Bodhisattva, then once Enlightened you can make a variety of choices.
But, being able to choose to extinguish your life force seems to contradict the promise of Eternal Life.
I hope you have given up any ambition to become the next Pope!
However, I do like your flavour of Christianity a lot more than many denominations I have heard about, but I honestly find it difficult to square it with the New Testament, this doesn’t mean you are incorrect though.
Thanks for sharing your personal faith, it is very interesting.
Cheers.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by jar, posted 10-12-2004 9:32 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by jar, posted 10-12-2004 6:54 PM Brian has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 149 of 466 (149477)
10-12-2004 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by 1.61803
10-12-2004 4:34 PM


Re: Back on Topic
Hi
It is pretty simple Brian, your gonna burn in hell.
LOL, if you only knew how many Christians have told me that!!!!
Remember the guy that called me Son of Stan (sic) LOL!!
Ah well, at least it will be warm, and full of familiar faces.
Cheers.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by 1.61803, posted 10-12-2004 4:34 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 254 of 466 (186631)
02-18-2005 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by jar
02-17-2005 12:09 AM


Re: I couldn't agree more...
Hi Jar,
IMHO if more folk would concentrate on love and just do little things the world would be a much nicer place.
But you do not need to be a Christian to do this, so we do not need to hook this solely to Christianity.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by jar, posted 02-17-2005 12:09 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by jar, posted 02-18-2005 7:41 PM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 257 of 466 (186697)
02-19-2005 6:13 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by jar
02-18-2005 7:41 PM


Re: I couldn't agree more...
Hi,
However, IMHO that is all that Jesus ever asked folk to do.
But, what about what others have said we have to do, such as believe in the resurrection, Jesus' victory over death, his death for our sins, the whole sin in the garden stuff, virgin birth etc.
If this is all we have to do, according to Jesus, then what happens if we don't do it?
Finally, if this is all we have to do then we don't even need to call ourselves 'Christian', as most other faiths promote this ideal as well. Buddha was telling people this over 500 years before Jesus was born. So, why Christianity for you?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by jar, posted 02-18-2005 7:41 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by jar, posted 02-19-2005 10:01 AM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 259 of 466 (186714)
02-19-2005 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by wmscott
02-19-2005 8:19 AM


Re: How to worship God?
Hi w,
It is loving and righteous on God's part to destroy the wicked, in order to preserve the righteous.
Can you explain how a day old baby born in Sodom could be considered wicked?
Cheers.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by wmscott, posted 02-19-2005 8:19 AM wmscott has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by wmscott, posted 02-20-2005 10:02 AM Brian has replied

  
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