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Author Topic:   Women and Religion - Does it anger you?
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 271 of 311 (109673)
05-21-2004 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by redwolf
05-21-2004 12:15 PM


quote:
The ten commandments strike me as timeless as does much if not all of what you read in the sermon on the mount.
Yeah, graven images are a huge concern for your average man on the street these days...

"As the days go by, we face the increasing inevitability that we are alone in a godless, uninhabited, hostile and meaningless universe. Still, you've got to laugh, haven't you?"
-Holly

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by redwolf, posted 05-21-2004 12:15 PM redwolf has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-21-2004 2:43 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 272 of 311 (109697)
05-21-2004 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Dan Carroll
05-21-2004 12:19 PM


Dan Carroll quote:
______________________________________________________________________
Yeah, graven images are a huge concern for your average man on the street these days...
______________________________________________________________________
Your point is obvious.
This is why scripture is INTERPRETED by preachers and theologians. How is this verse applied today ?
Back then, a graven image represented idolatry, which represented reliance upon a false god.
Today, a graven image represents ANYTHING that you trust more than God.
I believe this is an accurate intepretation of the commandment in question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Dan Carroll, posted 05-21-2004 12:19 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by jar, posted 05-21-2004 3:03 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 273 of 311 (109701)
05-21-2004 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Cold Foreign Object
05-21-2004 2:43 PM


What does this have to do with women and religion?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-21-2004 2:43 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-21-2004 4:24 PM jar has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 274 of 311 (109719)
05-21-2004 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by jar
05-21-2004 3:03 PM


I responded to Dan's statement as you know - ask him.
Are you an Admin or the speech police suddenly ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by jar, posted 05-21-2004 3:03 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by AdminNosy, posted 05-21-2004 5:02 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 275 of 311 (109724)
05-21-2004 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Cold Foreign Object
05-21-2004 4:24 PM


Pay Attention!
When someone asks you a civil question and is pointing out that the current thread of posts is veering away from a forum guideline it might be best for you to listen to what they are saying. I don't see that jar comment was directed at any specific person. Just noteing that the topic was getting lost. Both you and Dan need to pay attention to that.
Perhaps rather than have some cooling off in the topics you could do a little cooling off on your own.
This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 05-21-2004 04:04 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-21-2004 4:24 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-21-2004 7:37 PM AdminNosy has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 276 of 311 (109755)
05-21-2004 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by AdminNosy
05-21-2004 5:02 PM


Re: Pay Attention!
In reality, Jar did not like what I said - my point. So to protest this he/she decided to create a post that ignored the fact that I was responding to what someone else said.
It obviously has nothing to do with the topic title - Jar is not an Admin or a topic content policeman. You can censor me - he can try but I won't allow it.
If you really care about topic drift then shoudn't the debater who initiated the drift be rung up ?
Besides, where is the anger in any of this that your Admin post says exists ? Cooling off.....what are you talking about ?
Jar's post was directed at me - I can prove it - no one else.
This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 05-21-2004 07:23 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by AdminNosy, posted 05-21-2004 5:02 PM AdminNosy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by AdminNosy, posted 05-21-2004 9:04 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 277 of 311 (109780)
05-21-2004 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Cold Foreign Object
05-21-2004 7:37 PM


Re: Pay Attention!
I'm sorry if I read some anger in your post that isn't there. It can be hard to judge sometimes.
Jar did respond to your post as the one on the off topic issue that was the last one available. I don't get from his post that it was directed at anything more than the topic drift.
Jar was not censoring anyone. He was just offering a helpful reminder about topic drift. We should all understand that we all can get caught up in drift (I sure do often enough) and we should all thank someone when they offer a reminder that it is happening.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-21-2004 7:37 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-21-2004 10:23 PM AdminNosy has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 278 of 311 (109787)
05-21-2004 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by berberry
04-20-2004 3:28 PM


Berberry, to begin with, you're more likely to get a response from this old guy by toning down the insultive, cocky and demeaning attitude.
Meaning you have a friend who's really stupid. If his wife is more intelligent that he is yet she still submits to his will, she's a doormat. So your friend is dumber than a doormat?
It's not stupid to understand one's limits and to recognize the ability of one's wife to lead in certain areas. Nor is the wife a doormat to someone who willingly allows her to lead. "Dumber than a doormat? That's an unfounded meanspirited remark, imo.
Do you have any evidence at all to back up this oafish, bigoted, sexist statement? No, of course you don't. All you have is your stupid bible to do your thinking for you.
Why should I bother to answer this one? You seem to have the answer all by your selfy. But if you care to hear my answer, I'll air it.
1. Chess is a game of tough decisions. Where are the women world champs??
2. It is my personal opinion by 68 years of observation that men are more adapted to decision making in politics, in family administration, in business and in things in general.
3. I was once a door to door salesman. In our training we were taught that women were more easily persuaded to buy than men and less resistant to sales pressure. This is why most often when a phone representative calls to make a pitch, the caller asks for the wife.
Again, where's the evidence? Again, there isn't any! Stop making stupid statements unless you can back them up with something other than your silly bible. The bible doesn't provide evidence for much of anything except for the lack of civility and brutishness of the men who wrote it.
As I read this and the way you're coming at me, I wonder why I'm even bothering with you, but anyhow, I've been in workplaces where I had two different people telling me what to do and not always in agreement. I hated that and so do the kids. As I've already stated, in the workplace the chain of command is the only way to go in most cases and imo, the home is no different. Nothing stupid here either. By your token, the now generations are the only ones in the whole history of mankind of any culture worldwide that's not stupid.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by berberry, posted 04-20-2004 3:28 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-21-2004 10:26 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 281 by crashfrog, posted 05-22-2004 5:17 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 283 by nator, posted 05-23-2004 4:06 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 284 by berberry, posted 05-24-2004 3:25 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 279 of 311 (109801)
05-21-2004 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by AdminNosy
05-21-2004 9:04 PM


Re: Pay Attention!
You are right.
Jar did indeed do that.
I am most guilty of initiating topic drift in other topics - I will respect the rules.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by AdminNosy, posted 05-21-2004 9:04 PM AdminNosy has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 280 of 311 (109802)
05-21-2004 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Buzsaw
05-21-2004 9:24 PM


Buzsaw:
Women are superior to men.
Eve's punishment was to have to serve the inferior - think of the brilliance of that punishment by God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Buzsaw, posted 05-21-2004 9:24 PM Buzsaw has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 281 of 311 (109829)
05-22-2004 5:17 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by Buzsaw
05-21-2004 9:24 PM


1. Chess is a game of tough decisions. Where are the women world champs??
As it turns out, mostly they're in China and Hungary:
2001: Zhu Chen
2000: Xie Jun
Nona Gaprindashvili (1962-1978)
Maya Chiburdanidze (1978-1992)
Xie Jun (1992-1996 & 1998-2001)
Zsuzsa Polgar (1996-1998)
from No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.mark-weeks.com/chess/wcc-womn.htm and No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.geocities.com/nonna_kar/champions/champions_women.html
It is my personal opinion by 68 years of observation that men are more adapted to decision making in politics, in family administration, in business and in things in general.
By what criteria, exactly? Remember, the fact that men conspire to dominate those positions should not be taken as evidence that they're better at those positions. I know I've asked you not to make that mistake before, and here you are, doing it again. Do you have a problem reading statements in English or something?
This is why most often when a phone representative calls to make a pitch, the caller asks for the wife.
I spent a summer telemarketing for mortgage refinancers. We were taught to talk to whoever answered and ask for the person who made financial decisions. 9 times out of 10, the husband handed us to the wife.
Ultimately, we get to the source of the problem - you're old, Buz, and you refuse to believe that things might have changed since you were young. No amount of contrary evidence can change your mind because you filter out anything that doesn't fit your conceptions of the world - a world that's changed since you were a lad.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Buzsaw, posted 05-21-2004 9:24 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by jar, posted 05-22-2004 10:15 AM crashfrog has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 282 of 311 (109877)
05-22-2004 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by crashfrog
05-22-2004 5:17 AM


crashfrog writes:
Ultimately, we get to the source of the problem - you're old,
Careful there young tadpole. Let's wait until you shed your tail and crawl out on the lillypod before you start taking shots at your elders. Just because you have not been consumed YET, is no reason to think all the old are slow or that we can't learn a new way to snag a lunch. When you've eaten as many flies as we have, then you can talk about technique.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by crashfrog, posted 05-22-2004 5:17 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by crashfrog, posted 05-24-2004 3:26 AM jar has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 283 of 311 (110023)
05-23-2004 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Buzsaw
05-21-2004 9:24 PM


quote:
2. It is my personal opinion by 68 years of observation that men are more adapted to decision making in politics, in family administration, in business and in things in general.
First of all, you weren't "observing" much having to do with this topic until you were at least 6 years old, and were also probably not really thinking about it in a wider sense until your teens at the earliest.
Also, considering that men have traditionally used domination and force to gain and stay in power, they have also traditionally made huge efforts to not ever have to share that power.
That's why we have had to pass anti sex-discrimination laws in housing, employment, voting rights, inheritance and propery law, etc.
If you never allow women the opportunity to lead through disciminatory legislation or cultural means, of course we won't see women leading. That is simply common sense.
Why do you think that your own personal opinion, which is incredibly biasted and stilted in favor of what you want to be true, is representative of the abilities of millions of women across the entire world?

Critical thinkers and skeptics don't create answers just to manage their anxiety--Karla McLaren

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Buzsaw, posted 05-21-2004 9:24 PM Buzsaw has not replied

berberry
Inactive Member


Message 284 of 311 (110075)
05-24-2004 3:25 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by Buzsaw
05-21-2004 9:24 PM


buzsaw writes:
quote:
Berberry, to begin with, you're more likely to get a response from this old guy by toning down the insultive, cocky and demeaning attitude.
Sorry, but when I hear insulting, cocky, demeaning nonsense like the idea that women are inferior to men I have a tendency to respond with insulting, cocky and demeaning language.
quote:
It's not stupid to understand one's limits and to recognize the ability of one's wife to lead in certain areas.
You said she was smarter than he was and that he knew it. You said she submits to his will. Any woman who submits to a man's will simply because she is a woman and he is a man is a doormat. Of course that sounds demeaning. It describes a demeaning situation. I intended that it should sound demeaning.
quote:
That's an unfounded meanspirited remark, imo.
I think it's mean-spirited to teach girls that they are inferior to boys. I think it's mean-spirited to tell wives that they should submit to their husbands.
quote:
Chess is a game of tough decisions. Where are the women world champs??
Chess is merely the contract bridge of board games. I don't play chess. I play bridge. Men have no advantage over women at bridge. Many of the most successful players have been women, and I believe that there are far more successful women than men working today in the field of bridge instruction. Many of the most popular books about bridge are written by women.
Most bridge partnerships are male-female. In order for a partnership to be successful, absolute and uncompromising cooperation between the partners is required. Each must submit to the other as the lay of the cards (and the result of the auction, if you're familiar with the game) dictates. There is no opportunity for the male player to take a superior role simply because he is the male.
Maybe this is why I don't know any fundamentalists who play bridge.
quote:
I was once a door to door salesman. In our training we were taught that women were more easily persuaded to buy than men and less resistant to sales pressure.
There may be some truth to the notion that women are an easier sell, but I've been a salesman, too, and I think you may be drawing the wrong conclusion. Couldn't it be that women are more savvy? Couldn't it be that they're quicker to recognize a good product being sold at a reasonable price?
If what you say is true, buz - that marriages are more successful when the wives submit to the husbands - then there should be some scientific evidence to back it up. I don't know of any. I've asked you (in an insulting way, yes, but like I said the very notion of male superiority is disgusting to me) to show this evidence. I must conclude that the only evidence you have is the bible and your own experience as filtered through your own prejudices.
EDIT: Looks like we're getting close to the 300 mark. I thought I'd point that out in case anyone wants to tie up any loose ends before this thread is ruthlessly (or should I say 'mercifully') snipped.
This message has been edited by berberry, 05-24-2004 02:54 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Buzsaw, posted 05-21-2004 9:24 PM Buzsaw has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 285 of 311 (110076)
05-24-2004 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by jar
05-22-2004 10:15 AM


Just because you have not been consumed YET, is no reason to think all the old are slow or that we can't learn a new way to snag a lunch.
Well, there's always some statistical outliers like yourself, but as far as I know - and I may not know anything, of course - you old-timers are pretty much known for being set in your ways.
I've met a lot of seniors. I can maybe count 3 or 4 that seemed to have any ability to change anything about themselves.
Here's a hint - if you're wearing polyester, you're probably not one of them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by jar, posted 05-22-2004 10:15 AM jar has not replied

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