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Author Topic:   Women and Religion - Does it anger you?
Morte
Member (Idle past 6125 days)
Posts: 140
From: Texas
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 241 of 311 (109355)
05-19-2004 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Buzsaw
05-19-2004 7:34 PM


Re: Posts 229 and 230
quote:
I seem to be the only one in town who cares to respond to the topic question by voicing my anger concerning the Quran, the prophet Mohammed and the way millions of women in the Islamic world are being treated.
And I agree. See how easy that was? But I don't agree with your Biblical view - the view that women should be subservient and men should be the sole leaders, in or out of family. Therefore, that's what I'm debating - because there's something there to debate.
But you say that only your objections are on topic... So only objections to other religions than yours are on topic? I see nothing off-topic about debating Biblical views as opposed to Islamic ones.
{Added in edit} Just out of curiosity (being unfamiliar with the Quran and wondering about jar's comment in Message 240) what in the Quran does it say about women, specifically?
quote:
The rest of you are so intent on and busy about bashing the Bible and Christianity...
I was thinking that you'd say something like this - that's exactly why I said in Message 237...
quote:
Surely you don't think that all of the people who have been arguing with you for the side of equal treatment of women would suddenly change their opinion simply because it's another religion in the spotlight? We're not simply arguing against the "Christian viewpoint" because it's the Christian viewpoint, if that's what you think.
...See, we're not intent on bashing anything - we simply disagree with a view you've put forth and are debating it, rather than "debating" a topic we all agree on. Do you really think that your opponents, after having stood for the equality of women throughout this entire post, don't oppose the inequality and mistreatment of them in other forms as well? Do you really think that our views are based only on "bashing the Bible" and that we couldn't care less if it's another religion? That is, to put it simply, a completely absurd idea.
quote:
...that you all seem to be oblivious to the plight of the millions of women on the planet who are really being maltreated.
Again, not oblivious, just that I simply agree with you on it and so choose not to argue against it. It really is that simple. No anti-Christian conspiracy involved, here.
This message has been edited by Morte, 05-19-2004 08:49 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Buzsaw, posted 05-19-2004 7:34 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Buzsaw, posted 05-19-2004 10:32 PM Morte has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 242 of 311 (109359)
05-19-2004 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by jar
05-19-2004 7:59 PM


Re: Posts 229 and 230
Buzz, despite your feeble attempt to move the discussion away from your misguided opinion of women, there is nothing in the Koran that places women at a lower state then men.
Cough!! Cough!! They aint?? Well yous n me must be readin two totally different Qurans! I'd better get mine out and find you some quotes n see if they're in yours.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by jar, posted 05-19-2004 7:59 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by jar, posted 05-20-2004 8:24 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 243 of 311 (109361)
05-19-2004 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Morte
05-19-2004 9:35 PM


Re: Posts 229 and 230
But you say that only your objections are on topic...
No, I didn't say that atol. I said, "I seem to be the only one in town who cares to respond to the topic question by voicing my anger concerning the Quran, the prophet Mohammed and the way millions of women in the Islamic world are being treated."
You quoted it. Better read better before responding. I didn't say others posts were not on topic or that mine were the only ones on topic. I said I was the only one addressing the topic by expressing anger to the way Islamic women are treated. Get it now?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Morte, posted 05-19-2004 9:35 PM Morte has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Morte, posted 05-19-2004 11:00 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Morte
Member (Idle past 6125 days)
Posts: 140
From: Texas
Joined: 05-03-2004


Message 244 of 311 (109365)
05-19-2004 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Buzsaw
05-19-2004 10:32 PM


Re: Posts 229 and 230
quote:
Get it now?
Ah, I had an entire response typed out but then I finally realized what you were trying to say. I was reading it as, "I seem to be the only one in town who cares to respond to the topic question (by voicing my anger concerning the Quran)", rather than as, "I seem to be the only one in town who cares to respond (to the topic question) by voicing my anger concerning the Quran". My mistake.
I guess that the main reason it focused on Christianity in any case was because if you looked at Message 1 rather than the (somewhat misleading?) topic header, it focuses on only Christianity.
But in any case, that was just a minor point that I only stated because I thought you were saying others weren't addressing the topic. Or on topic. Whichever. What I'm more interested in is if you have anything to say to the rest of the post...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Buzsaw, posted 05-19-2004 10:32 PM Buzsaw has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 245 of 311 (109367)
05-20-2004 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by Buzsaw
05-19-2004 7:34 PM


I seem to be the only one in town who cares to respond to the topic question by voicing my anger concerning the Quran, the prophet Mohammed and the way millions of women in the Islamic world are being treated.
You're not the only one, though. I don't understand what more I have to do to convince you of that - beat up a Muslim or something?
The rest of you are so intent on and busy about bashing the Bible and Christianity that you all seem to be oblivious to the plight of the millions of women on the planet who are really being maltreated.
We're not in the least oblivious. It's just that the only person here who defends behaviors towards women that are as bad as the Islamic world seems to be you.
You're not going to convince us that the way you treat women is better just because there's someone who treats them worse. That's the logic of a 6-year-old - "But look what Billy did!" - not a position I'd expect a grown man to take.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Buzsaw, posted 05-19-2004 7:34 PM Buzsaw has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 246 of 311 (109411)
05-20-2004 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Buzsaw
05-19-2004 10:18 PM


Re: Cough, Cough
Here are a few. Buzz, note the totally different attitude towards women than in the Bible. Here, the woman is no secondary person, rather a PARTNER.
And their Lord has accepted of them and answered them: "Never will I
suffer to be lost the work of any of you be it male or female: you are
members of one another ..."(Qur'an 3:195)
If any do deeds of righteousness be they male or female and have faith
they will enter paradise and not the least injustice will be done to
them. (Qur'an 4:124)
And in particular, look at this description of the marriage relationship according to Muhammad.
O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their
will. Nor should you treat them with harshness that you may take away part
of the marital gift you have given them except where they have been
guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of
kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them it may be that you
dislike a thing and Allah brings about though it a great deal of good.
(Qur'an 4:19)
Note that the relationship should be one of EQUITY.
There is one other point that should be noted. In the Bible, Eve eats the Apple and then tempts Adam. But in the Koran, THEY, the man and the woman are tempted by Satan and together eat of the tree.
No Buzz. In Islam women have far higher standing and respect that under your perverted Christianity.
So let's stop this Red Gifilte Fish right know. You can not use this as a way to divert attention and direction.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Buzsaw, posted 05-19-2004 10:18 PM Buzsaw has not replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4755
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 247 of 311 (109463)
05-20-2004 1:12 PM


The new picture of the evolution of women/men
"According to the bible" ......That's a vague statement. The new picture of the evolution of women/men seems to be a typical, "let's attack the bible" statement. I say Asgara wrote it!
However, I take from the example of the living word - being a christian. Remember the disciples' shock when they saw Jesus talking with a woman?
Obviously the admin think most believers here are shepards/Jews, sojourning in the land of Israel. Ho hum.

nator
Member (Idle past 2192 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 248 of 311 (109484)
05-20-2004 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Buzsaw
05-18-2004 11:22 PM


quote:
Schraninator, I said most I didn't say all.
But it ISN'T TRUE that "most" animal species act in the way you say they do, buz.
quote:
Now let me make something clear. You asked me to come over to this thread and make a contribution.
Actually, it was more to encourage you to actually respond in a substantive way to the replies your messages generated.
quote:
If you got me over here to insult and threaten me that your're going to sic admin on me if I don't please you, I'm nota gona participate. I was busy elsewhere and I think I've made my position clear here.
If I'm wrong about you not following the rules of debate here, then you have nothing to fear from Admin, buz.
You made a bunch of claims.
You were disagreed with and asked to back up your claims.
You have not done so, and actually disappeared from the debate.
You returned, but have still not debated honestly, because you have no attempt to actually address the rebuttals directly.
Do you think you have followed the rules of honest debate?
quote:
I want to check out the stats on the divorce rate when I can get to it and then I'll get back and respond to that.
I await your comment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Buzsaw, posted 05-18-2004 11:22 PM Buzsaw has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2192 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 249 of 311 (109486)
05-20-2004 3:32 PM


Second time I've postd this message...
Buz, you failed to address the vast majority of my post to you, skipping the most important points, but this is a common tactic of yours.
Luckily, I am a bit of a bulldog, so here is the crux, which you failed to address AGAIN.
Of course, I'd really like you to also address the other stuff, but I'll settle for just this:
You have insisted that the your Biblical marriage model, with the male as leader and woman as follower, did not constitute a parent/child relationship.
Then you slipped up in your effort to show how wrong marriages could go when the men abdicated their rightful place as Grand Pubah for Life of the marriage. You very correctly characterized the pathetic, CHILDLIKE behavior the man was forced to display when he was in the subordinate role, which was exactly the point I was attempting to make clear to you.
You do obviously understand the point, because it was obviously quite distasteful and pathetic to you that a man would ever have to reduce himself to behaving like a child in his marriage to get what he needed or wanted.
Do you understand that this is exactly what the majority of women feel about your marriage model.
That it is demeaning and insulting and humiliating to be treated as anything less than an adult in any relationship, but especially in her marriage?

berberry
Inactive Member


Message 250 of 311 (109487)
05-20-2004 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by jar
05-19-2004 7:59 PM


Women and the Quran
Please understand that I am in no way endorsing anything buz says. He refuses to debate in good faith and has completely ignored posts I've made to him in this very thread challenging his demeaning view of women.
However, although I seldom see anything in his or her posts to disagree with, in this case jar writes:
quote:
...there is nothing in the Koran that places women at a lower state then men.
Yes there is. I'm not sure what the divisions in the Quran are properly called, but I'll refer to them as books and sections. From book 4, 'The Women', section 11 we find:
Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half. And to each of his parents a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a son; and if he have no son and his parents are his heirs, then to his mother appertaineth the third; and if he have brethren, then to his mother appertaineth the sixth, after any legacy he may have bequeathed, or debt (hath been paid). Your parents and your children: Ye know not which of them is nearer unto you in usefulness. It is an injunction from Allah. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
Thus males are to inherit twice as much as females.
In section 34, we find that men are created better than women, therefore men are to rule women:
Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
In book 24, 'The Light', verse 31 requires women to wear veils in public:
And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.
There's more, but this should be enough to establish the point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by jar, posted 05-19-2004 7:59 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by jar, posted 05-20-2004 4:27 PM berberry has not replied
 Message 252 by jar, posted 05-20-2004 5:28 PM berberry has not replied
 Message 254 by Buzsaw, posted 05-20-2004 11:42 PM berberry has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 251 of 311 (109496)
05-20-2004 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by berberry
05-20-2004 3:42 PM


Re: Women and the Quran
berberry
the issue of veils in public, it is part of a general admonishment to men and women to be modest. This is not placing women in a lower status.
Yes, inheiritence was a bummer, and I will certainly give you that.
But on the otherhand, the Muslim account of the Garden of Eden stands the man and the woman at the same level, each acting together. Unlike the OT account where the woman tempts Adam, in the Islamic rendition, it is the pair that fail.
O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the garden and enjoy (its good things) as you [both] wish: but approach not this tree or you [both] run into harm and transgression. Then began Satan to whisper Suggestions to them bringing openly before their minds all their shame that was hidden from them (before): he said "Your Lord only forbade you this tree lest you [both] should become angels or such beings as live for ever." And he swore to them both that he was their sincere adviser. So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree their shame became manifest to them and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?"
They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: if you forgive us not and bestow not upon us Your mercy we shall certainly be lost."
(Allah) said: "Get you [both] down with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling place and your means of livelihood for a time." He said: "Therein shall you [both] live and therein shall you [both] die; and from it shall you [both] be taken out (at last)." O you children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover your shame as well as to be an adornment to you but the raiment of righteousness that is the best. Such are among the signs of Allah that they may receive admonition! O you children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you in the same manner as he got your parents out of the garden stripping them of their raiment to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where you cannot see them: We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith. (Qur'an 7:19 27)
Notice in this account how it is always they, they, the man and the woman acted in concert.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by berberry, posted 05-20-2004 3:42 PM berberry has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 252 of 311 (109505)
05-20-2004 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by berberry
05-20-2004 3:42 PM


Re: Back on the issue of inheritance.
Even though the sura is not such a great deal for the women of Islam, it was still better than for those that followed the Bible or Jewish traditions.
Look at Numbers
Numbers 27
7 The daughters of Zelophehad speak right: thou shalt surely give them a possession of an inheritance among their father's brethren; and thou shalt cause the inheritance of their father to pass unto them.
8 And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a man die, and have no son, then ye shall cause his inheritance to pass unto his daughter.
9 And if he have no daughter, then ye shall give his inheritance unto his brethren.
So, according to this, if a man dies and has no sons the daughter can inherit.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by berberry, posted 05-20-2004 3:42 PM berberry has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Taqless, posted 05-20-2004 6:47 PM jar has not replied

Taqless
Member (Idle past 5935 days)
Posts: 285
From: AZ
Joined: 12-18-2003


Message 253 of 311 (109510)
05-20-2004 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by jar
05-20-2004 5:28 PM


Re: Back on the issue of inheritance.
Nicely shown, jar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by jar, posted 05-20-2004 5:28 PM jar has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 254 of 311 (109556)
05-20-2004 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by berberry
05-20-2004 3:42 PM


Re: Women and the Quran
Please understand that I am in no way endorsing anything buz says. He refuses to debate in good faith and has completely ignored posts I've made to him in this very thread challenging his demeaning view of women.
There's more, but this should be enough to establish the point.
Berberry,
1. you begin by saying you endorse nothing I say and then proceed to document me to be correct concerning Islamic women. Which is it?
2. I've tried to make it clear here in town that I am a very busy sole proprietor in business and have a very limited amount of time to expend on this forum. I had done the research last night and it got late so didn't get it posted, but I had planned to post the same stuff on the Quran and women that you posted here, but got here and see you beat me to it. Thanks. The main thing is that the truth is aired, no matter who does it.
3. As for Schrafinator, she accuses me of not responding to stuff when in fach I have already done so with stuff she's put out worth responding to. I simply don't have the time to respond to all that comes down the pike, especially with a hot rapid fire thread such as this where too much input is coming in too fast for me to handle. I was outa town Tuesday and again today on business.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by berberry, posted 05-20-2004 3:42 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by berberry, posted 05-21-2004 4:02 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 255 of 311 (109557)
05-20-2004 11:52 PM


We've talked about the Quran. Some Sunas which most Muslim mullas regard as near equal to the Quran for authority call for scourging of rebellious women by their husbands and worse punishment than for the male for adultery.
Males who pay the ultimate Jihad price are promised a heirom of virgins, etc in paradise. What are the women who pay that price as they have in Palestine promised?? I doubt they're gona get a heirom of virgin men.

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by zephyr, posted 05-21-2004 12:17 AM Buzsaw has not replied

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