Slavery

Yes, they were delivered from evil, and then told to take over, basically.I am no expert on this, but it was the start of it all, right after the Exodus. God took the only God loving people on the planet, and saved them, then put them in charge.God was maybe tired of all that was wrong in the world...again..after the flood. What have we learned from this?Let's sort of relate this to the world today. Let's say terrorism is way out of hand, and we are under control of the terrorists, and God shows up and tells us to take over. What do we do? Disobey God and sit idly buy while innocent people die? Or do we try and set the world straight? starting to sound familiar?This is just a loose thought, without putting much thought into it, so don't take it so seriously, but I hope you get at what I am trying to get at.the part I don't understand is that they were delivered from slavery, then allowed to have slavery again. To me there must have been a difference between being a Jew slave before they were delivered, and a slave taken by the Jews after they were delivered.I think we cannot understand it, because we weren't there, and do not fully comprehend how the world was back then.

If you read the link I provided, it explains how slavery was a form of adoption.Stop using only new world definition of slavery, and you'll start to get it.

That's not what the bible said.And let's not confuse the OT, with the NT.

So you're jewish?

No, I'm using strictly what's in the Bible.A few quick examples:

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Exo 12:44 But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.

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Ironically, the King James Version often uses the word "servant" instead of "slave" - but here it is clearly talking about a person who is bought for money.

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Exo 21:2 If thou buy a Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.

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Even if slavery wasn't permanent (for Hebrews), it was clearly a purchase - i.e ownership.

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Exo 21:20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
Exo 21:21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

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Unless the servant/slave died immediately, there was no punishment for the master/owner. And it is clear that the slave is the property of the owner, not an "adopted child".

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Lev 25:44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
Lev 25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begot in your land: and they shall be your possession.

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Here again, the servants/slaves are clearly owned, as property.

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Lev 25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen forever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigor.

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Notice here that slavery was permanent for non-Hebrews.

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Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt....

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Here, the word "servant" is used to describe the bondage of the children of Israel in Egypt. Are you suggesting that Pharoah "adopted" them?

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Deu 15:17 Then thou shalt take an awl, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant forever. And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise.

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Have you nailed your children to the door lately? Where is the love in that? Ludicrous.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

So, do you agree that the bible reports that God instructed his people to enslave others?

Look, go read this link, like I said earlier.http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qnoslave.html

Sometimes it's like circle jerk with you. You want me to say, yes God told them to enslave others, or Moses said God said. Then you want to get outraged because, how can a "loving" God do such a thing?Well I sort of agree with you, and as I have been saying right along, I want it to be explained to me also. There are things about it I do not understand, as the picture I have in my head of slavery (besides willing sexual slaves) is horrible.If you read the link I provided, it goes on to explain how ANE slavery does not fit the definition of slavery you will find in websters.com.Infact, I suspect that this current world we live in would not be possible if it wasn't for slavery of the OT, given the human nature.You seem to think that if God came down and taught us how to be liberals, then the world would be a pretty place. But he did, we had the garden, and we screwd it up. Then we had earth, and we screwd it up, and God flooded it. Then the only God loving people were entrapped as slaves, so he delivered them, and let them be the leaders of his will, even if it had to be done by force. Still we don't get it right, so the only way for us to righeousness, is by him sending his son to die for us.God created the good and the bad, he doesn't change that. Instead he sends his son to soak up all the bad we do, so that we may be saved.It is obvious that God was against some forms of slavery, since he delivered the Jews from it, why then would he condon it after they were freed? I think our vision of slavery is not what it actually was. Slavery, or slaves has a much broder definition than the one we find in current dictionarys.ie:

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slave

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Jer. 2:14 (A.V.), but not there found in the original. In Rev. 18:13 the word
"slaves" is the rendering of a Greek word meaning "bodies." The Hebrew and
Greek words for slave are usually rendered simply "servant," "bondman," or
"bondservant." Slavery as it existed under the Mosaic law has no modern
parallel. That law did not originate but only regulated the already existing
custom of slavery (Ex. 21:20, 21, 26, 27; Lev. 25:44-46; Josh. 9:6-27). The
gospel in its spirit and genius is hostile to slavery in every form, which
under its influence is gradually disappearing from among men.

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From this link:
Slave Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.comTell me you haven't been only refering or comparing slavery of the OT to the slavery of the New world, just to make it look so bad?

That's not much of an argument.I have shown what the Bible says about slavery. It's up to you to show us where that is wrong.Specifically:

1. How is owning another human being the same as adoption?
2. How is buying another human being for money the same as adoption?
3. How is it acceptable to beat an adopted child to death?
4. How is it acceptable to nail an adopted child to the door?
   

You go read your link and answer those questions.This message has been edited by Ringo316, 2005-08-17 09:26 AM

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Aparrently you missed the 15 times I mentioned that I want answers to these questions as well as you. And the link I provided answers some of those questions, and other replys of mine answer some of those questions, or give possible answers to some of those questions, I do not need to post them again, or is it my responsibility to explain to you slavery of the bible.The fact that you are asking those questions is either an indication that you did not read the link, or your reading comprehension is lacking.The bible even answers question #3.

And you've been giving answers, such as: the slaves weren't intelligent enough to feed themselves, so slavery was a good thing. Or: the slaves were really bad people, so they deserved to be slaves.I'd like to get you to think about the speculative answers that you have been giving, and see how ludicrous they are. I'm asking you to tell us what your link says, as per the Forum Guidelines:

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Bare links with no supporting discussion should be avoided. Make the argument in your own words and use links as supporting references.

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You are claiming that the Bible is right in condoning slavery. If you want to convince anybody that you know what you're talking about, then yes, it is your resposibility to explain - and as often as necessary. No. The fact that I am asking those questions is an indication that I don't find your answers adequate.It should be fairly clear to anybody reading this thread that your comparison of slavery to adoption is nonsensical. If your link shows otherwise, then it is your responsinblity to show us. Okay, then, show us where the Bible says it is okay to beat an adopted child to death. Chapter and verse.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

You see you are not reading, I said it was speculation, and not justification, put away your sword, and read. Let me rephrase that for you:I'd like to apologize as I have not been reading what your are saying, and some of your speculations seem to match what other people think on the internet. Because "dumb" people, or poor people could not support themselves, and selling themselves to slavery was a step up in their lives. We no longer need to do that today, so I can't relate. That is exactly whatI have been doing. If you read the link you would know. The link is too long to post, and the topic is so vast, you could probably study it for a year, and still not know the answers, yet you expect me to explain it to you in a single post. No I am not, I said I don't understand it, WTF is your problem?
I also said maybe we don't understand what OT, and ANE slavery really is, that is why we don't understand it, and as I study it, I am finding this to be true. I don't have to convince anybody of anything. I am just trying to have an intelligent conversation, and you are trying to give me a job title or something. Then go read the link, if you are that concerned, and stop pushing it off on me. You just want to justify yourself and go on saying the bible is f@#ked up because it condons slavery. I have been reading the link for 2 days now, it is quite complicated, but very enlightening. It answers all the questions. The punishment for killing a slave has been posted in here already, so find it, and stop harrassing me. Here's a hint, it's not ok.

Well, you're as slippery as a river rat all right. Your evasiveness is starting to get annoying.I said, in Message 116:

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Okay, then, show us where the Bible says it is okay to beat an adopted child to death. Chapter and verse.

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to which you replied, in Message 117:

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The punishment for killing a slave has been posted in here already, so find it....

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I'm talking about an adopted child and you're talking about a slave.-------------Allow me to recap:I brought it up because you said, in Message 107:

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If you read the link I provided, it explains how slavery was a form of adoption.

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In Message 110, I quoted the Bible:

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Exo 21:20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
Exo 21:21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

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pointing out that it was permissible to beat a slave to death.So I asked you, in Message 114, if slavery was a "form of adoption", as you claim:

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3. How is it acceptable to beat an adopted child to death?

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to which you replied, in Message 115:

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The bible even answers question #3.

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Now, I have asked you where the Bible says it is acceptable to beat an adopted child to death. I am not talking about a slave. I am talking about an adopted child.Where does the Bible say it is acceptable to beat an adopted child to death?I have shown a little bit of how the Bible describes and prescribes the treatment of slaves. If you are going to claim that slavery was a "form of adoption", you have to back that up. Giving a bare link to a website is not good enough.------------- I never said any such thing.The Bible certainly does condone slavery, but I have never said that the Bible is "f@#ked up".There is a very simple reason why the Bible condones slavery. Instead of demanding that I read your link, why don't you ask me what I think that reason is?

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

It's really cool that you think I am slick, but I would rather be known as truthful to the extent of my current knowledge. You make it seem like I am a liar.You asked:
1 How is owning another human being the same as adoption?
Implying that slavery of the ANE and OT can be at times a form of adoption, and it was according to the link I provided. People sold their children, and the payment was to feed the child until a time when the child could buy himself free.Then you asked:
3 How is it acceptable to beat an adopted child to death?Which I have no idea where you got that from, so I assumed you meant that adopted child was indeed a slave. So no where do I know of, not to say it isn't somewhere does it say that you can beat a slave, or an adopted child to death, for no apparent reason in the bible.so your reply was this confusing statement: But your implying that a slave is an adopted child, which is very narrow minded, and not the whole story of slavery in your narrow minded view of slavery, go read the link, and this dumb conversation can stop.by your own post:
quote:Exo 21:20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
Exo 21:21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.pointing out that it was permissible to beat a slave to death.How is it permissible if it is punishable?Beating people, and stoning them was a form of law and order back then, and was widely accepted. That verse does nothing to explain why a slave, or servant would recieve a beating. It only seems to get taken out of context, and then labeled barbaric.The image that God tells the Jews to follow is more like this:

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DT
12 If a fellow Hebrew, a man or a woman, sells himself to you and serves you six years, in the seventh year you must let him go free. 13 And when you release him, do not send him away empty-handed. 14 Supply him liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your winepress. Give to him as the LORD your God has blessed you. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed you. That is why I give you this command today.

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16 But if your servant says to you, "I do not want to leave you," because he loves you and your family and is well off with you, 17 then take an awl and push it through his ear lobe into the door, and he will become your servant for life. Do the same for your maidservant.

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18 Do not consider it a hardship to set your servant free, because his service to you these six years has been worth twice as much as that of a hired hand. And the LORD your God will bless you in everything you do.

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But if your slave loves you?
Set him free?
With food?How could these things be possible, with the images stired up by the God haters in this forum?

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There is a very simple reason why the Bible condones slavery. Instead of demanding that I read your link, why don't you ask me what I think that reason is?

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Aside from what I am learning about it, I would like to know your take on it, and can you back it up?From what I am reading, that slavery was necessary to survive and to have economic stability, as was many other things that we do not understand because technology allows us to not need those things anymore.However, it seems that "slavery" of the OT, was not as burtal and barbaric as the image of new world slavery today.The bible does not give you free will to beat your slave when ever you feel like it.Oh, and that comment I said about dumb people being taken as slaves, just because they were dumb, was probably a dumb speculation on my part, but there were people who could not support themselves, so they sold themselves into slavery. The reasons they could not support themselves, may be many, but one of them could be because they are not smart enough to get by on their own.I actually think I am doing rather well on this one, and I am enjoying learning about it.This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 08-17-2005 10:11 PM

Wait a minute. When parents sold their children, the money went to the parents, not the slave-owner. How could that money be used to feed the child who was sold?And did you not read Leviticus 25:46?

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And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen forever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigor.

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Forever. There's nothing there about "buying themselves free". I have said that slavery is not the same as adoption. I called that idea "ludicrous".Once and for all: Slavery is not a "form of adoption"!Is that clear enough? NO!I have said exactly the opposite. Did you not read what you quoted?

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Exo 21:20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
Exo 21:21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

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Unless the slave died immediately, the owner who beat him would not be punished. What part of "he shall not be punished" do you not understand? What part of that verse "seems" to be taken out of context? And how is it not barbaric to beat a person to death? You are deilberately picking and choosing only the "good" aspects of slavery in the Bible and ignoring the bad aspects. Those images are not "stirred up". They are direct quotes from the Bible.And don't call me a "God hater". For somebody who is trying to learn, you are doing a lot of speculating and asking very few questions.Since you ask (finally), here's my take on it:Slavery is wrong. Period.Jesus said, "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." There is no way that you can love your neighbour and own him as a slave. So Jesus was clearly against slavery.On the other hand, the Old Testament clearly condones slavery. How do I reconcile that?Easy.The Bible was written by men. Whether or not it was inspired by God, it was written by men. And men warped the message to suit their own wishes. They wanted to have slaves, so they made the Bible condone slavery.You can either accept that or you can twist the meaning of "slavery" the way you are doing. Personally, I would rather think that the Bible is imperfect than think that slavery is the same as adoption. That's a pathetic rationalization.Slavery was necessary to survive? Why couldn't they give food to the needy instead of enslaving them? And what about the slaves who were beaten to death? Slavery didn't ensure their survival, did it? Yes it does:

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Exo 21:20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
Exo 21:21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

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Memorize that verse. It's going to be on the exam.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.