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Author Topic:   Conversations with God
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7403
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 391 of 445 (891130)
01-18-2022 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 389 by Phat
01-18-2022 9:49 AM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
What assumptions is my life based on? What assumptions have I posted?
I think facts is a loaded term that you can manipulate. I prefer data and evidence. Data and evidence take me all the way. If something does not stand up to the data and evidence it is not relevant. I can remove it from consideration.
Wishful thinking is fun, but nothing to base a life on.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by Phat, posted 01-18-2022 9:49 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16055
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 392 of 445 (895738)
07-17-2022 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by ringo
01-17-2007 2:02 PM


Re: Verification through experience
ringo writes:
Doesn't it seem that most of those who do try to "prove God" - e.g. YECs (fundies in general) - are lacking in "inner joy"? Don't they come off as angry, arrogant, sour on life?
Point noted. Perhaps we are trying to convince ourselves or re examine our own beliefs. I neverhad any reason to even question whether Jesus existed or not until you started telling me that He wanted me to give it all up. No wonder there are fewer true Christians than is claimed.
Maybe "conversations with God" should emphasize listening rather than talking. Maybe then they'd hear Him telling them to smarten up.
The only question there is what it means to smarten up and what it means to have a double standard where we are expected to be spiritual martyrs whereas the bloke who used to belive (and claims he was every bit as aware of and close to Jesus as I am now) can now skip off with a free pass and be his own authority---in "communion" with other critical thinkers who claim that there is no God and that nobody else will fix humans and the planet except for the humans on the planet. It makes me tempted to publically deny God is real just like they do so that I would be under no charge to sell all that I have while these arrogant liberals think that they have it all figured out and that the conservatives are indirectly responsible for everything wrong with the world.
This real life snapshot of what I see nearly EVERY day at my job in ever increasing similarities was not the fault of conservatives. Who is it that wants to defund the police?
Seattle Is Dying
You guys claim that we Christians *should* be out witnessing to these people with little more than the clothes on our back! Ninety percent of these people have substance abuse problems. They care little for the rest of society and would steal from their own Mother.
Yet Jesus promises that He will give us the power to fight these spiritual wars and win back the souls of the damned.
Funny how it never worked here...where our members are by and large prosperous. And what is the secular solution to homelessness? Oh, that's right---defund the police and raise taxes on wealthy conservatives!! Got it.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by ringo, posted 01-17-2007 2:02 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 395 by nwr, posted 07-17-2022 9:18 AM Phat has replied
 Message 399 by ringo, posted 07-18-2022 12:30 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 415 by Theodoric, posted 07-24-2022 12:09 PM Phat has replied
 Message 416 by Theodoric, posted 07-24-2022 12:12 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16055
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 393 of 445 (895739)
07-17-2022 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by ringo
01-17-2007 2:24 PM


Re: Verification through experience
ringo writes:
The "inner joy" doesn't depend on an external cause. Get it whatever way you can - by meditation, by flying a kite, by teaching - but don't spoil it by trying to put a face on it. Listen to the silence but don't talk to it.
God forbid we put a face on it!! Better we treat it as if we use it and in fact contemplated it originally. Zeus forbids that *we* were created by "It". So you never saw the face of Jesus? Perhaps He can be found on those lawless streets of Seattle. Then again, you would claim that He commanded that we be poor before we could help them. Let's see how the secular groups do.
If you can get most of them off of drugs and be aware that stealing from society is WRONG, I will be impressed. No face needed.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by ringo, posted 01-17-2007 2:24 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 400 by ringo, posted 07-18-2022 12:53 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16055
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 394 of 445 (895740)
07-17-2022 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by ringo
10-31-2013 1:04 PM


Re: Prayer: Listening, Talking, or Both?
quote
To say that “prayer changes things” is not as close to the truth as saying, “Prayer changes me and then I change things.”
Critical thinking and agnosticism certainly wouldn't help change me... that's for sure.
Add by Edit: I can hear jar now: "Throw Prayer Away".
We all would do well to pray that jar is ok. We have lost enough people through natural causes around here.
My guess (and hope) is that it is so darn hot in Deep South Texas that jar avoids the computer and took a breather. Or he and his sister took a vacation to someplace cool(er). Or maybe he jess sits next to the air conditioner!

Edited by Phat, .


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 10-31-2013 1:04 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 401 by ringo, posted 07-18-2022 12:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6036
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 395 of 445 (895743)
07-17-2022 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 392 by Phat
07-17-2022 6:53 AM


Re: Verification through experience
This real life snapshot of what I see nearly EVERY day at my job in ever increasing similarities was not the fault of conservatives.
Of course it was the fault of conservatives. But you are too blind to see that.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by Phat, posted 07-17-2022 6:53 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 396 by Phat, posted 07-17-2022 2:14 PM nwr has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16055
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 396 of 445 (895745)
07-17-2022 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 395 by nwr
07-17-2022 9:18 AM


Its Return On Investment
Conservatives' ideas concerning return on investment are individual and concrete. Liberal's ideas help everybody...except perhaps them individually. But they are unafraid to let the government tax and handle the social problems. In fact, I suspect it's likely the reason that the commodities are not rising like they used to do when inflation reared its ugly head. They would nearly prefer government management of fiat currencies and suppress investments that promote a speculative and solid return to individuals who invest rather than social needs at large.
That's why the conservatives when in power squander public resources to help businesses in order to guarantee a tangible return whereas liberals throw money at everyone and everything that can potentially help everyone collectively and everything which they claim will eventually rise in value.
For a homeless situation, we have to trust that decriminalizing the activity, (even if it affects private business) and providing money and social programs is the answer.
The return on investment is assumed, and there is no timeline for when that return will generate.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by nwr, posted 07-17-2022 9:18 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 397 by nwr, posted 07-17-2022 4:24 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 402 by ringo, posted 07-18-2022 1:04 PM Phat has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6036
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 397 of 445 (895747)
07-17-2022 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 396 by Phat
07-17-2022 2:14 PM


Re: Its Return On Investment
I will put you down as completely and thoroughly anti-Christian.
Conservative economics has hollowed out the economy, with most of the income going to the already rich. And Phat fails to understand why there is a homeless problem.
Jesus would have been out their helping the homeless. But American fake Christians instead see the homeless as a problem. Rather than helping, they hide themselves away in gated communities and whine that Seattle is dying. They could be hiring some of the home, which would at least give them enough income to feed themselves. But conservative fake Christians would rather hire people in Bangladesh because their labor is cheaper.
Democrats at least attempt to enact legislation to assist the homeless. But the fake Christians block that legislation.
If we invest in the community, we will have a better and healthier community. We will have a community where Seattle is not dying. That's an enormous return on investment. But fake Christians such as Phat don't allow that to count, because they only look at returns that show up in their own bank balance.
Shame on you Phat, and shame on all of the fake Christians that think like you.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by Phat, posted 07-17-2022 2:14 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 398 by nwr, posted 07-17-2022 11:01 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6036
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 398 of 445 (895748)
07-17-2022 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 397 by nwr
07-17-2022 4:24 PM


Re: Its Return On Investment
With regard to my use of the expression "fake Christians", here are some links:
Why are so many evangelicals so un-Christian?
The Evangelical Church is Breaking Apart
Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation
The last of those is a book. Perhaps someone might like to start a Book Nook thread on it.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by nwr, posted 07-17-2022 4:24 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19720
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 399 of 445 (895753)
07-18-2022 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by Phat
07-17-2022 6:53 AM


Re: Verification through experience
Phat writes:
I neverhad any reason to even question whether Jesus existed or not...
There is always a reason to question everything.
Phat writes:
... until you started telling me that He wanted me to give it all up.
And you still don't understand giving up everything.
Think of those exercises where you close your eyes and let yourself fall backwards, trusting the others in the room not to let you fall.
Little children love to have their fathers throw them up in the air and catch them. That's what Jesus meant when He said you should have the faith of a little child. You should trust your father (earthly or heavenly) to catch you when you fall.
Phat writes:
The only question there is what it means to smarten up...
It isn't rocket science. It means to do what He told you to do.
Phat writes:
... and what it means to have a double standard....
There's no double standard. Everybody who believes God exists should do what He says. Anybody who doesn't believe he exists has no reason to do what he says. How can you be so stupid as to not understand that?
Phat writes:
... where we are expected to be spiritual martyrs...
Nobody is expecting you to be a "spiritual martyr". Doing what God told you to do is not martyrdom.
Phat writes:
... whereas the bloke who used to belive (and claims he was every bit as aware of and close to Jesus as I am now)...
I think my claim is every bit as believable as yours. At least I didn't deny what Jesus said.
Phat writes:
... can now skip off with a free pass and be his own authority...
Well yes, I do have a "free pass" not to do what some fictional character supposedly told ne to do. Why is that so hard to understand. But I'm not entirely "my own authority". Society is my authority.
Phat writes:
... -in "communion" with other critical thinkers who claim that there is no God and that nobody else will fix humans and the planet except for the humans on the planet.
We have evidence for that. Prayer doesn't work. Remember?
Phat writes:
... while these arrogant liberals think that they have it all figured out...
You're the arrogant one. And I have told you many, many, many times that we do NOT "have it all figured out" nor do we claim to. It's just that we HAVE to figure it out ourselves or it won't get figured out. You arrogant fascists have proven many times over that your way doesn't work.
By the way, remember our Bible study about "liberals"? Are you ever going to stop spitting on the Bible?
Phat writes:
... and that the conservatives are indirectly responsible for everything wrong with the world.
Not indirectly. Directly.
Phat writes:
This real life snapshot of what I see nearly EVERY day at my job in ever increasing similarities was not the fault of conservatives. Who is it that wants to defund the police?
Case in point. The police are clearly tasked with things they shouldn't be - e.g. mental health care. The police have no more business dealing with meantal health issues than they do with open-heart surgery. But you conservatives want to give the police MORE funds to more efficiently kill the people whom you see as a threat.
Phat writes:
You guys claim that we Christians *should* be out witnessing to these people with little more than the clothes on our back!
You should be giving them the clothes off your back, according to Jesus.
But what do you mean by "little more"? Do you think Christians should be "witnessing" by carrying guns?
Phat writes:
Ninety percent of these people have substance abuse problems.
So do you.
Phat writes:
They care little for the rest of society and would steal from their own Mother.
You don't know that, you hate-filled bastard.
Phat writes:
Yet Jesus promises that He will give us the power to fight these spiritual wars and win back the souls of the damned.
Why do you trust Him to give you "the power" when you don't trust Him to do anything else for you?
Phat writes:
Funny how it never worked here...where our members are by and large prosperous.
Your "spiritual warfare" doesn't work here because it's mindless drivel.
Phat writes:
And what is the secular solution to homelessness?
Homes.
That was easy.
Phat writes:
Oh, that's right---defund the police and raise taxes on wealthy conservatives!!
Will you ever read what I write? I have told you many times that I am NOT in favor of taxing the rich. I'm in favor of taxing the ordinary people and using the money to make life better for them so they can afford to pay the taxes.
I'm in favor of prison sentences for wealthy conservatives.
And for anybody who promises to cut taxes.

"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt."
-- motto of the Special Olympians

This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by Phat, posted 07-17-2022 6:53 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19720
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 400 of 445 (895754)
07-18-2022 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 393 by Phat
07-17-2022 7:01 AM


Re: Verification through experience
Phat writes:
Zeus forbids that *we* were created by "It".
FYI, Zeus was not a "creator" in the same sense as your made-up God was. Zeus was the father of gods and humans but he "created" them in the old-fashioned way. And he had a father and mother.
Phat writes:
So you never saw the face of Jesus?
Nobody did.
Phat writes:
Perhaps He can be found on those lawless streets of Seattle.
He can't be found anywhere. If He could, why would the streets be lawless?
By the way, I don't know why you're picking on Seattle. I live in the murder capital of Canada but I wouldn't call the streets here lawless. (I don't live in "the hood" but I can see the hood from my window.)
Phat writes:
Then again, you would claim that He commanded that we be poor before we could help them.
No. I have never claimed any such thing. I have said that He (if He existed) wants you to trust Him to take care of you.
Phat writes:
If you can get most of them off of drugs...
Why would I want to get them off drugs? I'm in favor of harm reduction. Make the drugs safer and stop wasting money trying to "get them off drugs" by throwing them in jail. Make their lives better and maybe they'll be less inclined to try to get a little satisfaction out of drugs.
Phat writes:
... and be aware that stealing from society is WRONG....
They're not stealing "from society". They're primarily stealing from the rich - and it's debatable whether that's "wrong". Robin Hood was a hero, wasn't he? In fact, it could be argued that it's the rich who are stealing from society.
I think I have mentioned before that I used to work at one of Canada's largest drugstore chains. A few years ago, they reduced their efforts to combat shoplifting - presumably because it was costing them more than it was worth.
But you won't be impressed by facts, will you?

"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt."
-- motto of the Special Olympians

This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by Phat, posted 07-17-2022 7:01 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19720
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 401 of 445 (895755)
07-18-2022 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by Phat
07-17-2022 7:05 AM


Re: Prayer: Listening, Talking, or Both?
Phat writes:
Critical thinking and agnosticism certainly wouldn't help change me... that's for sure.
Why not? Why are you so determined to be a heartless (and brainless) bastard?
Phat writes:
We all would do well to pray that jar is ok. We have lost enough people through natural causes around here.
We're going to lose everybody sooner or later, from causes natural or otherwise. Prayer ain't gonna change that.

"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt."
-- motto of the Special Olympians

This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by Phat, posted 07-17-2022 7:05 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19720
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 402 of 445 (895756)
07-18-2022 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 396 by Phat
07-17-2022 2:14 PM


Re: Its Return On Investment
Phat writes:
Conservatives' ideas concerning return on investment are individual and concrete.
So are bank robbers' idea concerning return on investment.
Phat writes:
But they are unafraid to let the government tax and handle the social problems.
The government is us (or should be). Why would we be afraid of us?
Phat writes:
For a homeless situation, we have to trust that decriminalizing the activity, (even if it affects private business) and providing money and social programs is the answer.
Homelessness is not a criminal activity.

"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt."
-- motto of the Special Olympians

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by Phat, posted 07-17-2022 2:14 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 403 by Tanypteryx, posted 07-18-2022 2:27 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 407 by DrJones*, posted 07-18-2022 7:52 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3419
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 403 of 445 (895758)
07-18-2022 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 402 by ringo
07-18-2022 1:04 PM


Re: Its Return On Investment
Homelessness is not a criminal activity.
But poverty is a character flaw according to "christians" like Phat.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by ringo, posted 07-18-2022 1:04 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 404 by Phat, posted 07-18-2022 2:46 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16055
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 404 of 445 (895759)
07-18-2022 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 403 by Tanypteryx
07-18-2022 2:27 PM


Re: Its Return On Investment
Poverty is an attitude. Poverty is giving up and letting another vibe run your head.Throwing money at it wont change the attitude of the people being given the money, but it sure might change the attitude of the people you are taking it from to get the money in the first place. LET THE PEOPLE WHO WANT IT FIXED (THROUGH MONEY) FIX IT VOLUNTARILY AND WILLINGLY. (JUST AS YOU ADVOCATE THE Christians giving it all up and that the rule does not apply to others) This is ringos double standard.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 403 by Tanypteryx, posted 07-18-2022 2:27 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 405 by Tanypteryx, posted 07-18-2022 2:56 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 406 by Percy, posted 07-18-2022 3:42 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 408 by ringo, posted 07-19-2022 11:49 AM Phat has replied
 Message 409 by Tanypteryx, posted 07-19-2022 1:44 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 413 by dwise1, posted 07-23-2022 5:03 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3419
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(2)
Message 405 of 445 (895760)
07-18-2022 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 404 by Phat
07-18-2022 2:46 PM


Re: Its Return On Investment
Bullshit! Poverty is a policy decision.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 404 by Phat, posted 07-18-2022 2:46 PM Phat has not replied

  
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