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Author Topic:   Conversations with God
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 151 of 530 (884762)
03-07-2021 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by PaulK
03-07-2021 6:21 AM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
I don't know, PaulK. When the man says so in his own paper I have a tendency to assume he accepts such.
quote:
We might happen morally to disapprove of, say, polygamy. Other cultures happen to approve. For us, the claim ‘Polygamy is wrong’ is true. For others, it is false. And surely there’s no independent ‘fact of the matter’ about whether it is right or wrong really. Moral truth is relative. That’s precisely why it would be wrong for us arrogantly to impose our own particular moral point of view about polygamy on these other cultures.
quote:
Certainly, to commit yourself to the existence of non-relative truth is not to commit yourself to the view that that you are incapable of error. You can acknowledge that truth is non-relative while also acknowledging that your ability to discover what’s true may be quite limited.
He keeps switching his definition of truth from opinion to factual knowledge and back trying to treat them equally. Only in philosophy can one screw up definitions so badly that differing opinions become fodder for absolute vs relative truths.
They are opinions. The fact that you have opinions does not convey a truth value to that opinion.
Societies do not possess differing physical facts on moral issues but differing opinions on how to react to those facts.
A black man is still a black man in America or in Egypt. The facts don't change. What may change is the opinion of whether it is moral to hang him for looking at a white girl. That is not a difference in Moral Truths. That is a difference in opinion on the value of human life. It is a difference in moral conduct not moral truth relative or otherwise.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by PaulK, posted 03-07-2021 6:21 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by PaulK, posted 03-07-2021 10:57 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 152 of 530 (884764)
03-07-2021 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by AZPaul3
03-07-2021 10:10 AM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
quote:
I don't know, PaulK. When the man says so in his own paper I have a tendency to assume he accepts such
In fact he doesn’t say so. The quote on polygamy is not his view. It is introduced with the sentence
Here is a common line of argument.
And the italicised text following gives that argument.
In the second paragraph following he actually says:
The above argument for relativism about moral truth has a certain superficial appeal. But it’s fatally flawed
I hardly think that saying that an argument is fatally flawed is an endorsement.
I don’t know why you even think that the second paragraph you quote helps you since it is attacking an argument made by relativists. His point there is:
So, contrary to what some relativists suggest, those who reject relativism need not be arrogant, jackbooted bullies intent on ramming their beliefs down everyone else’s throat.
quote:
He keeps switching his definition of truth from opinion to factual knowledge and back trying to treat them equally
Wrong again.
quote:
Societies do not possess differing physical facts on moral issues but differing opinions on how to react to those facts.
If morality is determined by social consensus as you said then it seems that there are moral facts that are different in different societies. According to you female circumcision is moral in the societies that accept it. I disagree. But not because I think that there is some absolute morality out there which says so.
quote:
A black man is still a black man in America or in Egypt. The facts don't change. What may change is the opinion of whether it is moral to hang him. That is not a difference in Moral Truths. That is a difference in opinion on the value of human life. It is a difference in moral conduct not moral truth relative or otherwise.
It seems that you are reducing morality to the uninteresting relativism of Law’s essay. It’s a matter of taste, like liking sausages. It’s more than saying it is just opinion - since opinions can be wrong, while personal likes and dislikes can’t be. Or maybe you do say that there is a correct value of human life and one of the societies is wrong (which is a separate question from whether we know or can know what the correct value is).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2021 10:10 AM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2021 12:08 PM PaulK has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 153 of 530 (884765)
03-07-2021 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by PaulK
03-07-2021 10:57 AM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
I hardly think that saying that an argument is fatally flawed is an endorsement.
quote:
But if this is true, then must we not at least accept relativism about moral truth? We might happen morally to disapprove of, say, polygamy. Other cultures happen to approve. For us, the claim ‘Polygamy is wrong’ is true. For others, it is false. And surely there’s no independent ‘fact of the matter’ about whether it is right or wrong really. Moral truth is relative. That’s precisely why it would be wrong for us arrogantly to impose our own particular moral point of view about polygamy on these other cultures.
Undoubtedly, it can be tempting to appeal to relativism — particularly moral relativism — in order to encourage people to be more tolerant of and sensitive towards other cultures. Relativists often present themselves as the defenders of open-mindedness and freedom. Those who oppose relativism are somtimes portrayed as arrogant, as believing themselves incapable of error, and as fascistically wishing to impose their own brand of ‘absolute’ truth on everyone else.
The above argument for relativism about moral truth has a certain superficial appeal. But it’s fatally flawed.
What he is referring to as fatally flawed is the argument that relative morality "... (is) precisely why it would be wrong for us arrogantly to impose our own particular moral point of view about polygamy on these other cultures."
He is still referring to these things as "truths". They are not. They are moral opinions. That is my objection. Not his example of polygamy.
If morality is determined by social consensus as you said then it seems that there are moral facts that are different in different societies. According to you female circumcision is moral in the societies that accept it. I disagree. But not because I think that there is some absolute morality out there which says so.
The facts are the same. The little girl's clit is being brutally cut off.
Yes, it is "moral" in that culture. It is an acceptable social practice. That is their moral opinion.
The rest of the world abhors the practice and demands it be stopped. It is not an acceptable social practice in the greater world society. It is not moral in the greater world social culture.
This has nothing to do with any truths of human conduct but differences of moral opinion. What is or is not acceptable human behavior.
And when two moral opinions conflict we humans get to decide as a larger global society which is the superior acceptable conduct and to enforce such action by social strictures, education, punishment.
It’s more than saying it is just opinion - since opinions can be wrong, while personal likes and dislikes can’t be.
Of course personal likes and dislikes can be wrong. I like to have sex with 8 year old girls. In this relative moral environment that is wrong and we all accept and support that moral opinion for the conduct of humans in our society.
Other societies may have a different opinion.
The truths are not different. The morality is. The restrictions, or not, on specific human actions may differ. That is the relative nature of morality.
There is no absolute morality to guide society. There is only the morality we make for ourselves. And societies negotiate, or war, to resolve differences in moral opinions.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by PaulK, posted 03-07-2021 10:57 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by PaulK, posted 03-07-2021 12:27 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 154 of 530 (884766)
03-07-2021 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by AZPaul3
03-07-2021 12:08 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
quote:
What he is referring to as fatally flawed is the argument that relative morality "... (is) precisely why it would be wrong for us arrogantly to impose our own particular moral point of view about polygamy on these other cultures."
That’s what you quoted before, so it seems that you are agreeing with me that he does not endorse that view, as you claimed in your previous post,
quote:
He is still referring to these things as "truths". They are not. They are moral opinions. That is my objection. Not his example of polygamy
Opinions are generally held to be true, so that isn’t much of an objection. Calling it an opinion only argues for uncertainty over whether it is actually true or not.
quote:
The facts are the same. The little girl's clit is being brutally cut off.
Yes, it is "moral" in that culture. It is an acceptable social practice. That is their moral opinion.
So why the scare quotes? Either it is moral - and if you’re right that morality is decided by social consensus is is - or it isn’t.
quote:
Of course personal likes and dislikes can be wrong
They can’t be incorrect. There is no fact of the matter that sausages should be liked by everyone,
quote:
The truths are not different.
If morality is decided by social consensus - as you claimed - they are. If you now want to argue that there is some absolute morality that might disagree - as your use of the word opinion and your insistence that the truth remains the same suggest - then please do so explicitly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2021 12:08 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2021 1:00 PM PaulK has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 155 of 530 (884767)
03-07-2021 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by PaulK
03-07-2021 12:27 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
That’s what you quoted before, so it seems that you are agreeing with me that he does not endorse that view, as you claimed in your previous post
Well then you missed the nuance. I never claimed he endorsed one over the other. His misuse of the concept of truth is my objection.
Opinions are generally held to be true, so that isn’t much of an objection. Calling it an opinion only argues for uncertainty over whether it is actually true or not.
We're talking morality here. The facts that inform the morality can be said to be true or false. The morality itself has no truth value. The social opinion is that such is either acceptable conduct or it is not and that opinion may differ by who and when the question is asked.
So why the scare quotes? Either it is moral - and if you’re right that morality is decided by social consensus is is - or it isn’t.
And which do you think it is?
They can’t be incorrect. There is no fact of the matter that sausages should be liked by everyone
Get real. We're not talking the personal, non-intrusive, strictly internal feeling about sausages. We're talking about the violation and mutilation of another human being. Personal likes and actions can be very wrong.
If morality is decided by social consensus - as you claimed - they are. If you now want to argue that there is some absolute morality that might disagree - as your use of the word opinion and your insistence that the truth remains the same suggest - then please do so explicitly.
We really aren't communicating at all are we.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by PaulK, posted 03-07-2021 12:27 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by PaulK, posted 03-07-2021 1:37 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 156 of 530 (884768)
03-07-2021 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by AZPaul3
03-07-2021 1:00 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
quote:
Well then you missed the nuance.
Well, no. You quoted an argument he disagreed with as if it expressed his view. That isn’t nuance, that’s error,
quote:
We're talking morality here. The facts that inform the morality can be said to be true or false. The morality itself has no truth value.
So why didn’t you just say that? You can embrace nihilism if you want, but that itself is an opinion.
quote:
And which do you think it is?
I don’t think that moral truths are determined by social consensus as you seemed to say.
quote:
Get real. We're not talking the personal, non-intrusive, strictly internal feeling about sausages. We're talking about the violation and mutilation of another human being. Personal likes and actions can be very wrong.
I was talking about truth rather than moral evaluation.
But according to you moral judgements are just opinions with no real truth value. So when you say that they can be wrong you mean that they can be wrong in your opinion (and in the opinion of others) but it is meaningless to say that they are actually wrong.
quote:
We really aren't communicating at all are we.
The problem seems to be mostly at your end. This is the first time in this discussion you have said that there are no moral truths, and even then you seem to contradict that. If you can’t even be clear about the basics of your own position how can you hope to have a meaningful discussion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2021 1:00 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 03-07-2021 1:54 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 159 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2021 3:32 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 161 by Phat, posted 03-07-2021 3:42 PM PaulK has not replied

  
AnswersInGenitals
Member (Idle past 237 days)
Posts: 673
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 157 of 530 (884769)
03-07-2021 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by PaulK
03-07-2021 1:37 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
A serial killer likes to lock his victims in a cage for several days and then slowly crush them to death. Society finds this behavior morally reprehensible. The killer is captured, incarcerated, tried, found guilty and is then stoned to death. Society finds this behavior morally justified, even commanded by god. Morality is a matter of opinion and social convention, but opinion and social convention derived from an evolutionary imperative for survival of the population. We abhor the transgressor but adore the executioner.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by PaulK, posted 03-07-2021 1:37 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by PaulK, posted 03-07-2021 2:15 PM AnswersInGenitals has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 158 of 530 (884770)
03-07-2021 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by AnswersInGenitals
03-07-2021 1:54 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
quote:
Morality is a matter of opinion and social convention, but opinion and social convention derived from an evolutionary imperative for survival of the population.
So here is a question. In your view is that a sufficient basis to say that the killer actually is in the wrong? Or do you agree with AZPaul when he says that there are no moral facts?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 03-07-2021 1:54 PM AnswersInGenitals has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2021 3:36 PM PaulK has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 159 of 530 (884774)
03-07-2021 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by PaulK
03-07-2021 1:37 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
Get real. We're not talking the personal, non-intrusive, strictly internal feeling about sausages. We're talking about the violation and mutilation of another human being. Personal likes and actions can be very wrong.
I was talking about truth rather than moral evaluation.
But according to you moral judgements are just opinions with no real truth value. So when you say that they can be wrong you mean that they can be wrong in your opinion (and in the opinion of others) but it is meaningless to say that they are actually wrong.
And I am talking moral evaluation not truth.
When I spoke of wrong I was speaking of the human action as seen by my personal moral judgement. The action I see as wrong. That is my personal, and this society's, moral judgement.
The morality is not right or wrong, true or false. It just is. It's a thing, a vessel (as abstract as that may be)
The concept of an equation is neither right nor wrong. What matters is what is inside the equation.
The concept of morality has no right or wrong. What matters is the specific human action being constrained (or otherwise).
The question then becomes whether morality (right or wrong set aside) as manifested in human society stems from some evolution of ideas or from some absolute source.
Now I can say your morality is wrong, meaning I disagree with the constraints (or other) you place on specific actions. But the morality carries no truth value of its own. And my view of your morality (the specific action being done or barred) carries no force if I am alone in that opinion.
My contention is that relative morality is the only game in town. Which means morality (good or bad notwithstanding) ... floats, but it also evolves. It is a population of memes in the Dawkins sense.
The moral judgement of global society is that female genital mutilation is an abhorrent barbarity.
The view that says because all morality is relative we, as a human society, need to accept such barbaric bloody mutilation on children is humanely abhorrent. That view may be consistent with the philosophical purity of the ivory tower but it fails, miserably, as a human construct.
On that basis alone, let the philosophy go to hell (another personal judgement) and let the reality of the human condition prevail.
All morality is, and always will be, relative but who cares. That presents no bar to doing humane things for people, if that's what we want to do.
Which would be nice.
I, for one, would approve.
The problem seems to be mostly at your end.
I accept that.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by PaulK, posted 03-07-2021 1:37 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by PaulK, posted 03-07-2021 3:49 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 160 of 530 (884775)
03-07-2021 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by PaulK
03-07-2021 2:15 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
Or do you agree with AZPaul when he says that there are no moral facts?
No. Never said that.
It's ok. My bad.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by PaulK, posted 03-07-2021 2:15 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by PaulK, posted 03-07-2021 3:51 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18389
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 161 of 530 (884776)
03-07-2021 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by PaulK
03-07-2021 1:37 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
PaulK writes:
This is the first time in this discussion you have said that there are no moral truths, and even then you seem to contradict that. If you can’t even be clear about the basics of your own position how can you hope to have a meaningful discussion?
It seems to me, at least at first glance, that AZPaul3 advocates that there are no other moral truth absolutes apart from the judgement of a greater society. In other words, marginalized groups need to get on board with the consensus for the consensus itself is the only hypothetical absolute that there is. Which I of course disagree with. Humans are not God...whether literally or collectively. AZ would of course argue that God is a myth, yet often jokingly suggests that he himself is the Creator.... a thinly veiled attempt at humor yet a prospect which I think he actually believes at some level. The collective opinions and beliefs of all humans on the planet still does not equate to any sort of a mandate for authority.
AZPaul3 writes:
The question then becomes whether morality (right or wrong set aside) as manifested in human society stems from some evolution of ideas or from some absolute source.
See?
We humans are responsible. Or we ought to be. God--Creator of all seen and unseen gives us the ability which we are charged to respond to. Being responsible is a communion between the ability of the Creator and the response of the humans. Any other communion/consensus is simply fake. Best call J.Noble Daggett. You will need legal advice.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killo
The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by PaulK, posted 03-07-2021 1:37 PM PaulK has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 162 of 530 (884777)
03-07-2021 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by AZPaul3
03-07-2021 3:32 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
quote:
And I am talking moral evaluation not truth.
And that was a mistake.
quote:
My contention is that relative morality is the only game in town.
Then why are you a nihilist rather than a relativist ?
quote:
The view that says because all morality is relative we, as a human society, need to accept such barbaric bloody mutilation on children is humanely abhorrent. That view may be consistent with the philosophical purity of the ivory tower but it fails, miserably, as a human construct.
But - because of your nihilism - you can’t say that it is actually wrong. Only that you object to it. I don’t think that does much better - it’s just as easy to defend abhorrent practices using it as it is to object to them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2021 3:32 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 163 of 530 (884778)
03-07-2021 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by AZPaul3
03-07-2021 3:36 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
quote:
Or do you agree with AZPaul when he says that there are no moral facts?
No. Never said that.
I’m afraid you did, quite explicitly:
The morality itself has no truth value.
Message 155

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2021 3:36 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2021 6:17 PM PaulK has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 164 of 530 (884787)
03-07-2021 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by PaulK
03-07-2021 3:51 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
And you translate that as no moral facts.
Ok.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by PaulK, posted 03-07-2021 3:51 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by PaulK, posted 03-07-2021 6:21 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 165 of 530 (884788)
03-07-2021 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by AZPaul3
03-07-2021 6:17 PM


Re: Why You People Think The Way You Do
quote:
And you translate that as no moral facts
There’s no translation necessary. A fact has to be true. Something that has no truth-value can’t be a fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2021 6:17 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by AZPaul3, posted 03-07-2021 7:21 PM PaulK has replied

  
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